To be deeply puzzled by competitive anti- feminism.......

[seeker]

"I'm not a feminist"

"oh, I'm so much less of a feminist than you are"

"I'm so not a femynyst I don't even know how to spell it"

From a man who used to be sexist; it's NOT patronising to say he realises that women are as good as men - it is actually a very positive thing & yes, a real breakthrough.

Because he really didn't know that before.
He really hadn't met women who he felt were equal in their careers to himself & other men; because when he was younger there were barely any female engineers in the UK.

Actually many of the female engineers that he meets now grew up in ex-Communist countries like Poland where they were encouraged to follow the same careers as men.
There still aren't many British women who are engineers.

I'm pleased to say that many of Dad's other working class middle aged male colleagues have improved their attitudes as well.

Even at my place of work; 10 years ago you didn't meet many female Registrars or Consultants - especially not Anaesthetists or Surgeons. Medicine & General Practice were more female-friendly.
Now there are quite a few women who are Surgeons & Anaesthetists - & quite a lot of older male Consultants (as well as both male & female patients) who are also adjusting their attitudes because those women are of course as good; if not better than their male colleagues.

Can I just mention that the current commander of the International Space station, Sunita Williams, is a woman. And she ran the Boston marathon... in space.

How cool is she !

I actually tell my dd she can do anything when she grows up, including going into space if she wants. What an inspiration Sunita Williams is.

The Soviets were putting women in space in the 60's however. Took NASA till the 80's to get on board.

Actually, I think I coined the phrase competitive anti feminist because I secretly don't believe other women really hold the views that they express on here, and they are just putting it on because they are terrified of being thought a feminist. I mean, nobody really thinks it's ok to call a 32 year old woman a girl, do they? Or that it's fine for women to work full time outside the home and do all the childcare and housework too? Or that men are now discriminated against more than women are? Or that....oh, I don't know , lots of others.

Another sterling post, Latara.

Its an improvement yes, I suppose, from maybe "women cannot be engineers as they may break their nails" or something.

A man saying "......and the women are just as good as the men" and it apparently being a huge compliment, is sexist, maybe not as much as he was, but he is sexist, and patronising.

All IMO of course but I suspect if a man posted on MN either in AIBU, Chat, FWR, wherever "you know what the women mechanics I work with are actually as good as the men" I suspect he would have his balls virtually minced and fed back to him via a tube.

I Love a bit of Peggy x

I mean, nobody really thinks it's ok to call a 32 year old woman a girl, do they?

I think it's ok as long as they call men boys too. I agree it could be seen as patronizing but I don't think it's intrinsically sexist.

I mean, nobody really thinks it's ok to call a 32 year old woman a girl, do they?

As I said on the previous thread about this. I don't care, call whatever you want. It's about tone and context for me, personally. I do really think it's ok.

Also adding to what getmore said you'll note on the other thread I do call my DP's 30 something friends boys.

I get called 'young man' sometimes and I'm 44 !!

Yes Seeker, I am 32, and I am a girl. Not sure what Im supposed to be terrified of though.....some mumsnetters getting the arse about other females not minding if they are called girls? And also getting the arse when said females just wont do or think as they are told, the naughty minxes?

Yea, Im terrified alright

hey if you wish to for ever infantise and belittle yourself - go for it

I couldn;t care less if some women want to prove some kind of non point by making themselves look like they are in some sort of misogynist of the month with the men ...Liz Jones makes a career off it

just don't apply the same label to me as a grown up woman

" The boys" or "the girls" is very different form calling an individual 32 year old woman a "young girl"

See? That's what I mean. I honestly can't believe that anyone could fail to see that distinction.

the missing word is competition !

I mean, nobody really thinks it's ok to call a 32 year old woman a girl, do they?

Depending on the tone and context, then I do think it can be ok. It wouldn't bother me. I have no reason to pretend or make up stuff. It's just my opinion.

you said 'girl' in your previous post, not ' young girl'

atacareer - i do see what you mean but i think it's all relative; if you consider that someone has been brainwashed almost into thinking a certain way for 2 thirds of their life then begins to see things differently - then you realise that the goalposts of what is 'sexist' or 'patronising' can be different for different people.

A bit like if a person with anxiety disorder makes a bus journey alone, then that's as much of a step for that person as making a round-the-world trip alone is for another person...

Another example is when i've met certain Drs who've moved from countries where women really are 2nd-class citizens & they start off treating female colleagues (eg nurses like me) as servants but end up as friends... this has actually happened to me with a couple of male Dr colleagues & it's great to see the change in them.
(Obviously i'm not saying that all men from those countries are sexist. But some are.)

If a man on MN or even on my Facebook is sexist then i give my viewpoint but i'm never rude or 'mince their balls' so to speak... i try to see why they think like they do & then get them to see my side of things if possible.
Being rude or not understanding men isn't going to help them be less sexist.

The only infantalising and belittling that is going on on this thread is from women, towards other women (girls whatever)

I am not belittled or infantilised when I call myself a girl. I am however by other females/girls/women trying to tell me what to think. At least the hypocrisy is screaming rather than quietly going unnoticed.

As for the 'girl' term - i didn't used to think about it until one of my friends said ''we shouldn't call ourselves 'girls' anymore because we're too old to be 'girls' '' - then i realised how daft it was that i would never call a man 'boy' yet i referred to myself as a 'girl' not a 'woman'.

Calling yourself a 'woman' is basically admitting you are a responsible adult; who wouldn't want to say that's what they are?

I get what you are saying Latara, in a way. Any change is better than none, but its still sexist and I'd feel far more patronised by that than being called "a young girl"

My FIL is very sexist, and he wont ever change. Twat.

Those of you who call yourself girls- do you always? Are you never a woman?

And would you call other women girls?

"there's a new person joining the team on Monday " "oh, man or woman?""a young girl"

"excuse me, who deals with enquiries about jobnseekers allowance?""That young girl over there"

Isn't there another bunfight thread for the 'young girl' issue ?

trust me you are - by the people calling you, a grown woman, 'girl' but if you are happy to accept that it's your choice

Ive been called "that young girl who sits near the window", Ive said "oh, you see that girl in the blue suit, give it to her". Some people have called me "young lady", Ive been called "that woman". Ive told my team we had a girl starting working for us (because she presumably had a vagina, so is a girl).

Im terrified though, so have obviously made all this up.

Yes, there is getmore, but despite Rebecca at MNHQ noticing this is a thread about a thread at ten to eleven this morning it's just been ignored.