to think that there is NEVER an acceptable reason to call a 32 year old woman a "young girl?"

[Hullygully]

No I'm not.

I couldn't care less what emotive flannel is flung about.

IT. IS.NOT.ACCEPTABLE.

The end.

Yes, you can wish it changed. I think we agree on that.

The PC no, but one of the sailors was in his 30s.

The Captain was about 60 so, to him I suppose, both were "young".

I am going to need proof.

"So there was a specific attempt to "personalise" rather than "professionalise" the women" I don't have any specific issue with the policeman who said this. He may have done it for any number of reasons and he obviously wasn't trying to be offensive or put anyone in their rightful place. I however find it hugely depressing that we live in a society where so many grown women on a forum with no personal grief to deal with are prepared to not only accept that this was a perfectly reasonable way to describe a 32 year old woman but are even bending over backwards to conjure up examples of situation in which a 32 year old man would be described in the way ie this young boy went off to work etc etc. I must live in a very different world to the rest of you if you have ever heard a 32 yr old man described publicly (not by his 90 yr old granny) as a "young boy".

The bigger issue which depresses me even further is that most people would be quite prepared to admit the damage caused by telling someone they are worthless or stupid etc and yet consider it quite normal to be calling women "girls" repeatedly (when men are almost invariably "men") and to not accept that has an impact on both men and women on the perceptions of women.

I have worked very hard for 25 years in a male dominated environment saying in a very, very jovial way 'no "girls" here, only women', refusing to preform secretarial tasks or pour the tea in meetings (I was the finance director). I was even at a company event where they had corporate polo shirts and stationery made - blue for the "men" and pink for the "girls". The message got through in the end when I refused to pay their salaries

The easy acceptance of grown women, of being labelled a "girl" when "men" would be used for a male, makes me want to weep. [weep emoticon]

But apparently that makes me radfem

Actually I think I have been radicalised by this thread!

That's funny, Hully, Seeker was proved wrong on the original thread and did the exact same thing.............."

No I wasn't. I was told I was wrong. A very different thing.

ahh dry your eyes Kewcumber, being labelled a girl doesnt bother me

When I start my new job I wont be doing the 'tea', taking notes in meetings or answering the telephone. Infact I've got a young boy who will report into me and he'll be doing those things (mwahahahaha)

Sorry but I just don't buy the theory that personalising the officers was done with a view to achieving public support. If that was genuinely the case, then much more thought and consideration would surely have been put into the statements made.

On the other hand, if it was a purely emotional response in the aftermath of a tragedy then Hully's right, it speaks to an underlying problem with how women are viewed.

Hully I appreciate your concern over the ramifications of infantilising language. But if you think this one use is so influential that one would have to justify it to one's daughters, why do you not think that it could also be influential for gathering evidence from witnesses?

(I would like you to appreciate that I have been here for the last 22 pages. I have refused to comment thus far, because it seemed discourteous. I did not want to turn your polite courtesy (in starting a thread about language separately, as asked) into a fred about fred. I would therefore be gratified if you could answer my question properly. No ad homs, strawmen, tangents, dramatic exaggerations or any other debating fallacies.)

It's only a problem to some though. I wouldn't bat an eyelid in the same situation if the police officer was male and was described as a 'young lad'

So Jessie, we have to infantalise women to garner public sympathy and support ? If so, it's a bigger problem than I thought

Actually that thought horrifies me. We infantalise women because it's the easiest way to win hearts and minds. We infantalise women so we can catch the bad men. How about embarking on a real effort to overcome stereotypes and prejudice instead of using demeaning women because it's the easy option.

Fuck me, really ??

I didn't know girls were all infants personally

irrelevant to question posed.

Excellent question Jessie.

Shame it wont be answered.

It's not irrelevant just because you don't like the answer.

"ahh dry your eyes Kewcumber, being labelled a girl doesnt bother me" didn't bother me either. Until I was inevitably referred to as a girl and asked in front of a major client (I think it was a world wide pitch for Shell business) to be asked to pour the tea when there were significantly younger men in the room, I've had cigars and port passed around the table which were passed over me without even asking (and yes thank you I did want some port), I have been introduced to a new colleague as doing "something in accounts" after my male colleagues have been introduced by name and title... I could come up with a fair few other examples over 25 years and yes I have somewhat lost my sense of humour about it (probably around year 2 of being a finance director).

Even if inexplicably there are some grown women who don't object to being called a girl whilst their male colleagues are called men, surely the default should be "men" and "women" as that's unlikely to cause any offence. I don't call all my young male subordinates "sonny" on the basis that some might find it a tad offensive (unless we have a close enough relationship for them to know its a joke and its not in front of a client whom I would prefer to take them seriously).

YANBU.

'Young Women' is both professional and personal not to mention accurate (when describing a 32 year old).

Why use a word that refers to children? We know they are young, innocent, victims, they aren't children though.

But it is. I didn't claim that it was the most effective mthod EVAR. I simply see a contradiction. Doublethink, if you will.

I would like it explained. I appreciate that women's rights are an emotive subject for us all. But I would like to understand this divergence in our view further.

When I was 21 a coroner's officer asked me before an inquest whether there was a man back at my office who could cover it. I said there wasn't and asked why. He awkwardly said it wasn't the sort of case a young girl should hear and wouldn't go into details.

A while later the coroner stopped proceedings to ask me if I wanted to be excused as the death involved auto-erotic asphixiation. This 'fatherly' officer had taken it upon himself to get me removed from the court for my own good, or possibly to spare his own embarrassment. Luckily the coroner wasn't having any of it but thought he ought to check.

I've no doubt the officer thought he was helping. He wasn't. He was trying to exclude me from a valuable part of a local reporter's career because of the way he saw 'young girls'. That's why paternalistic attitudes are damaging and why so many women on this thread resent them.

You are claiming that the end justifies the means ?

I am questioning why we had to have these women portrayed as young girls to obtain sympathy and support for the police. Is being a police officer killed in the line of duty not enough ? Is the fact that they were brave women not enough ? And if not, why not ? And why is it acceptable to use women this way - infantalising and diminishing them to suit a bigger purpose ?

hully does cjs work for you as a female alternative to guys?

well, where I worked the men were called boys. I inexplicably dont mind being called a girl because...well...I am a girl.

And when I was in a sales meeting with the MD poured the tea.

And at the Xmas do the CEO gave me one of his finest cigars. Bloody lovely it was.

I don't have a big issue with being one of the girls when the men are boys. You're lucky that your experience is so gender neutral. Mine most certainly wasn't. Perhaps you can imagine spending years being treated as the most junior person in the room just because you are female and being called a girl, then say its really not a problem.

Ignoring the question again.