To be angry that the Chief Constable chose the words..

[seeker]

"gentle" and "a chatterbox" respectively to describe the two women police officers who were murdered on duty yesterday.

Can you imagine those words ever being used to describe a man?

empusa and squeaky when you are a chief constable you have a duty to use words correctly.

In the extremity of grief people unused to public statements say all sorts of things. That's fine. What's not fine is for senior staff to quote them directly on things they might wish they'd expressed a little differently in a less heightened moment. I suggest that shows a lack of respect and understanding whether intentional or not. You don't need to make stuff up to make a dignified tribute affectionate. You just need to take a bit of care.

When I die I imagine my friends and colleagues will say: 'She was a bit of a pisshead who liked shoes, which is why she got cabs to work because she often got up late and couldn't walk in her heels.'

That would make me smile if I could still hear it at my funeral. But not if my boss said it when I'd just been killed doing my job.

No seeker, your indignation IS misplaced on this occasion, because it upsets YOUR sensibilities. This isn't about your need for all women to be addressed in an 'appropriate' way (whatever that is), it's about a psycho who brutally murdered two police officers, and the unfolding tragedy and loss that their families have to face.

Think about this, do you really think that their families give a shiny shit that their daughters were called 'girls', or 'a chatterbox' or 'gentle' (I mean gentle? WTF is offensive about that). Really?

You and your systers are on your own with this one.

Ah but she isn't alone sigmund because I know exactly where she's coming from and it's not about the obvious tragedy of any life being taken, it's about being in a job where the commanding officer, maybe not intentionally, didn't get across what he should have with regards to these courageous women working in such an environment.

I agree with you seeker.

I am not a radfem.

I do not think its disrespectful to be angry that these women have been showed less respect than they deserve.
They are women, not girls.
Chatterbox is like 'bright' it is almost exclusively used to describe children and women.

You would never hear a slain policeman described as a bright boy who was a real chatterbox (for example)

He would be an intelligent, articulate man.

What has happened is utterly awful. Objecting to language used does not mean we don't care what happened or are hijacking a tragedy to make a point.

The way people are described is important. The way the media do it sways public opinion in an alarming way.

My brother was police. He was battered and left for dead in a layby. Fortunately he lived. He is still suffering from the long term affects of the attack over 20 years later.

I know she isn't alone. I said 'you and your systers are on your own'.

WTF is a 'syster'?

sarcastic for "sister" which is sarcastic for "someone who agrees with the OP"

I just wikid and it seems to be Norwegian

Systers? is this some sort of cult I don't know about Oh pack it up sigmund.

Chicken - There was me thinking it was a bit culty

It sounds more like a Goth metal band.

I don't know, I read it somewhere, but I can't remember the context particularly.

Sigmund

I actually agree with your last post. Loved ones will not care that such words were used. Seeker's making a different point, which is that maybe others who are not emotionally involved should care that women and men are referred to in different ways.

My own view is that it's a valid point, but not at this point in time.

I'm going away now though

Thinking about it, maybe it would be a way to get to folk, you know like a culty goth metal band spreading the word?

At what point in time though Jamie? in two weeks when all is probably forgotten? That's not right either is it? Seeker, as I do, probably feels very sad for what has happened but surely it shouldn't mean that other debates cannot come from such a thing where Seeker was making a valid point regarding the establishment that these heroic people worked for.

Clipped

The trouble is when emotional and philosophical arguments clash, the latter won't get a fair hearing, very understandably.

Actually I do not think anyone is in the position to state that the relatives would not care about te words used.
How could we know that?

When you lose someone the strangest things (to others) take on huge importance.

The way our loved ones are described by others is incredibly important. Who is too say that someone who lves these women is not upset by this description?

I think it is worth considering the language we use. Chatterbox is a potentially patronising word but in context I think it's poignant: "She was a chatterbox and was always smiling, even after a night shift when everyone else was a bit grumpy." It's not just calling her a chatterbox in a dismissive way, it's painting a picture of her as a positive, enthusiastic woman who enjoyed her job.

As for 'girl' - again, generally you have to be careful about calling adults 'girls' but when talking about someone whose life has ended decades early... it's expressing the wrongness of a 23 year old being killed.

As a serving police officer, these colleagues have obviously been in my thoughts all day. However I would also like to say that I have also thought a lot about Peter Fahy. Many years ago he was the senior officer for the area in which I was based (not GMP) and I can say without hesitation that he is by far the most outstanding leader that I have worked for.
Obviously this is just my opinion but hearing him speak yesterday reminded me of the qualities I respected in him. He was a balanced, incredibly fair, dedicated and respectful leader (oh and actually very gentle in nature also) and I for one would be delighted were he to be my Chief Constable.
If my family and friends ever have to listen to a press conference announcing my death in service, I can only pray for someone with the qualities of Peter Fahy to be the one to do it.

I do understand what you are saying Jamie. I maybe classed as rather unemotional about things that don't really happen within my circle of people, therefore I can be philosophical and know that Seeker, when all is said and done, made a valid point. It didn't mean she cared less for the tragedy.

What tends to upset me more in this thread is the bashing, which is uncalled for anytime.

Does that make sense?

Gleeful kicking ? Not on my part. I'm actually bloody annoyed and had to step away earlier.

'No. My argument from the beginning is that friends, family and close colleagues a, obviously able to saynanything they want. Somebody as a represntative of an organisation, such as the armynor the police force has to choose their words with care.' -
No. Your arguement in your OP seeker, was over the words 'gentle' and 'chatterbox'. You had to back away from that when it was pointed out time and time again that you'd got it wrong and those words were attributed by friends and colleagues. Now you are sticking to the 'young girls' comments because you find them offensive.
Of course you are entitled to be in the minority who feel this but your robotic replies and emotional detatchment from something that happened only yesterday is what is most offensive here to me.

I do wonder at people who disect language in this way during a tragedy and find it odd. I simply can't agree with you and others that it is disrespecting them as Police Officers.

If they had been men would you have done a thread about them in AIBU objecting to them being called 'young lads' ,with all their life infront of them?

Think about this, do you really think that their families give a shiny shit that their daughters were called 'girls', or 'a chatterbox' or 'gentle' (I mean gentle? WTF is offensive about that). Really?

Do you know that they don't care? Do you know that this isn't how some of them feel? No, you don't and neither do any of use. How do you know that one of their mothers doesn't think just like seeker? Do you know that the women themselves didn't hold views like this? None of us do.

I think the point is that a man in his 30s would be unlikely to be referred to in such a way.

Personally I would think it disrespectful to refer to a gren man as a boy ( which is a closer equivalent than lad)