To object to DH wanting me to use my church attendance to get dd1 into school

[pouffepants]

Dd1 is due to go to high school next year. She is a mouse and has mild sn, so we are obv very nervous of this.

Amongst our choices is a c of e school, which you have to attend church to get in. I do attend church, always have and would describe myself as a christian. The school in question has the best results in the area, and is considered the best school by most. I am dubious about this, and think that they probably only achieve so well because they avoid the difficult families by backdoor elitism, which I have a problem with.

Dh agrees with this theory, but thinks I should bite the bullet and use my church attendance to get her in. I am very unhappy about using my religion in this way, in fact I'm unhappy with religious schools at all, but if a school is run by christians then it should run on a christian philosophy of caring for everyone, not just their own.

Dh says he would be unwilling to attend church himself to get her in. If it were THAT important for him to have her attend there, then I think he should be prepared to do this. ie. he wants me to compromise my beliefs for this, but is unwilling to himself.

AIBU to be annoyed by this stance?

pouffeepants
there is a school where I live that's c of e & its disgusting there admission policy/techniques. My son attends the local primary school but I did try and get him into other said school. he was rejected because I didn't arse kiss to get him in, so I totally understand what your saying.
I have a friend (who is a teacher) & she has complained to the education board about the underhand admissions.
wondering if its the same school that you are talking about or if its a thing that the c of e do regular. its like hand picking children and that's so wrong.

I totally agree with your view point op, but I think I would bite my tongue and do whatever it took to get my dd in the best school for her (not necessarily the 'best' school)

Attending church does not always automatically secure you a place in a CofE school and I speak from experience.

My Mother had taken my DD to Church every Sunday from her being born. I did not attend all the time but did go when I could, the Church concerned was the Church linked to the school, she was brought up with Christian values during her life. So when I applied for her to attend the CofE comprehensive that I had attended as a girl it never entered my head that she would not be accepted but she wasn't.

I appealed against the decision and had to attend an appeal hearing. This consisted of a LEA lawyer, the Cannon of the Priory, a top Vicar in the area, the headmaster and 2 women whoever they were. I sat there with a week old baby in my arms and was asked why she had not attended a CofE primary, the nearest one was 5 miles away, I didn't drive and had until my latest addition had 4 DC's 1 of whom was under nursery age so that the school round the corner was much more applicable in our case. I was asked why I did not attend church every week, I in turn asked them why I had to go into a building, sing hymns, say prayers etc to have faith. I made it clear that my daughter had attended every Sunday and that was her choice not me forcing her. I found the attitude of the people there to have been very bigoted and elitist, certainly not the type of environment that I wanted my daughter to be educated in.

After 45 mins of interrogation the appeal was brought to an end. Before I left the room I expressed my desire for them to withdraw my application, that even if they accepted her I would refuse the offer and very plainly and politely listed my reasons, at no time was I confrontational I acted in a very professional manner. Their faces were a picture, they were obviously not used to the idea that someone would pass over their school on principal.

She attended a comp where there were disadvantaged children and has gone on to be a manger of a children's home for children with physical and emotional problems, nice to end on a good note:) love her dearly and am as proud as punch.

You may as well use it really.

My ds is from a multicultural family and hence he won't get into about 70 % schools in our borough because we (stupidly) thought that as we live in a multicultural country we won't sign up to any one of our family faiths.

I loathe my taxes going to faith schools but honestly if you are a church goer and your dc's can get in then why not?

Do what's best for your kids.

You, pouffe are the kind of Christian, no person, I can get behind. I spend too much time trying to get people to understand that it is not in the interests of children to advantage one set on religious grounds.

I do understand people who are willing to sell out their principles to 'help' their children. However, I think this hurts all out children in the long run.

YANBU. Good for you.

I teach and have always refused to teach in private or elite schools as it goes against my principles. However where my dc are concerned i would put my principles to one side. Its a sad fact that everyone is out for themselves and only you can secure your childens future. You wouldn't be taking advantage as you are actually christian. There will be plenty who would go to church just to get into the school. You are not using your religion. If one of there requirements is church going parents then you need make no apology for being one. If this school is so selective, maybe you need to question if this is the sort of school you want for DD though.

And mum I would support anyone going to a church or other faith institution to get their kid into a school.

Yup it's corrupt to do so but that's UK education sytem now and it's set to become more corrupt.

You're not wrong giveitago and i'm not sure i wouldn't do the same for my dcs.

Yup - so f'ing corrupt if you have faith.

Listen up - a friend who's a catholic who doesn't go to church every week and put money in the coffers (but has been lots and had put loads of money in the coffers) can't get the priest to sign the application. Another lady off the plane from another country rolls up to her local priest where she ends up and this priest happens to be from her country and he signs off her application and her kid gets in.

Corruption. No other word for it. The UK education system is corrupt.

think what's best for your child, not you, and do that.

i'm not suggesting you don't always do what's best for your child, i'm sure you do.
just that the decision becomes easy when you look at it that way.

Your problem isn't your DH it's the school's admissions criteria.

He is right IMO. He should indeed turn up to church to get her in himself, but it's probably too late to do that for admission next year. So you need to organise it.

The only reason this might be a better school as far as I can tell, is because they don't have to deal with as many difficult familie

So it might be the best school but for the wrong reasons?

What are you doing to correct the problems with the education system? Cause not sending your dd to a certain school isn't really going to do much.

I'm very sceptical about church schools saying they have a christian ethos anyway. Don't all schools promote the basic christian values our laws and morals are based on?
No they don't.

You attend church, your DD attends church. So she not you can claim a place at a church school.

I don't agree that church schools are full of hardworking, well mannered pupils. They have a wider mix of children from all different backgrounds though. This means you don't see a group of children all from the same area. Read into that what you will.

They are more likely to have better behaved school.Any kind of 'hoop to jump through' automatically excludes the offspring of parents who couldn't give atoss.

catwoo - parents giving a toss about going to church doesn't necessarily equate to parents who give a toss about education.

I went to a catholic school, and it certainly wasn't all middle class - there were kids from a wide range of backgrounds. I don't know how my school compared to other local ones, but there were definitely a number of pupils from rougher backgrounds, and also a fair number of badly behaved pupils who didn't give a toss (these two groups not necessarily the same - some of the worst troublemakers were from middle class families).

yabu to say that you care as much about the education of the community as you do your own daughter, the community is not your primary responsibility, your daughter is. If your daughter doesn't get in, some other kid whose parents are willing to play the game will and it will make no difference to 'the community', however, it will make the world of difference to your daughter.

You describe her as a 'mouse' (presumably very shy?) with special needs, that is going to make her very vulnerable to bullying so if you can get into a school with none of the 'problem' kids from 'problem' families (read, the bullies, esp the violent ones), the chances of her being on the receiving end of bullying is greatly reduced and any that does happen will more likely be properly dealt with because the school won't be overloaded with pupils with behavioural problems and putting their 'problems' before everybody elses safety.

Your child needs the best school she can get and if that is the one, as a parent you should be prepared to cut your arm off and eat it if that's what it takes to give her the best opportunity to be safe, educated and happy. She deserves parents who advocate for her, not parents who neglect her best interests in the name of the 'community'.

I can't really understand why you accept other services/products from this church (the pastoral care, the religious teaching, the opportunity for community worship, the Eucharist and other sacraments, the social activities, Sunday school?) but not the religious school that's attached? Surely the same concerns you have about social exclusion apply to the other stuff as well?

I can't understand you at all. Everyone wants the world to be a fairer, better place but you have to put your own child first surely?

I hope you are not being pedantic about this one issue whilst merrily buying products made by people who are being exploited etc etc You must have an extremely moral and upstanding attitude across all areas of your life to find it acceptable to add pressure and stress to your SN child's school life on these grounds

I went to a Catholic school. I'm sure on paper there were rules such as church attendance etc, but in reality the vast majority of pupils did not attend church except when forced to during school hours. Behaviour was appalling, bullying was rife and exam results were consistently sub-standard. Just because a school is religious doesn't mean it is always the best!

Leftwing, I don't attend a traditional church, so eucharists and sacraments don't apply. I don't think my beliefs would really be described as traditional either, but I still continue to attend and listen to the teaching, to focus my mind and get my own take on it. Although it's an independant church, it is recognised by the c of e and almost all of the teenagers in our church go there.

I don't think anyone from dd1's primary will go there, so she doesn't want to go, but wants to stay with her friends at the 'rough' comp.

Dh's theory is that by avoiding the problem families (in the main) there will be little bullying. I however see first hand how she doesn't really fit in with the very middle class church kids, however nice they are. (To be fair she doesn't fit in especially anywhere).

YANBU. You were, perhaps, being a little overoptimistic if you expected to get any thoughtful consideration of the moral issues by posting in AIBU.

So the situation as I see it is this. You are a Christian. You live your life by a set of principles, based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus was an inclusive sort of person who mixed with everyone, including prostitutes and tax collectors, and didn't judge anyone. You think Jesus wouldn't approve of a faith-based school that works on the basis of excluding people - the very kind of people, in fact, that Jesus went out of his way to include.

You believe that you have a moral obligation to follow the example of Jesus.

On the other hand, you may feel that you also have a moral obligation as a parent to do the best for your child - or, if not the best, at least to make sure she doesn't come to any harm. Your DH feels the church school would be best for her. Perhaps the interesting bit of the dilemma is that you don't really feel that, do you? You think the other schools - the ones that take the kids from the problem families - are probably just as good and will give her a broader experience of life.

It then becomes a different sort of dilemma, doesn't it? If you genuinely felt the church school was a better school, then it would be a difficult decision to make: your principles or your child? But you don't - you also like the other schools (or don't think they're noticeably worse). So the problem then becomes one that you and your DH don't agree on what is best for your child. Have you asked your DD what she thinks?

I can't offer you advice about what to do, because I don't think it's an easy decision. But don't let people make you feel ashamed of having principles, because they are good ones.

You're spot on, along with LRDfeminist dragon, in understanding my viewpoint.

I despise people using religion as a trump card ie 'you must make allowances for me due to my religion.' Religion IS the trump card in my world, in that the way I live is the most important thing, but that's for me to suffer the consequences if the world isn't set up as I would like.

I totally understand people saying it's not for dd1 to suffer those consequences, and it's a fine line to travel. But it's a parenting decision that I make. Most would have environments that they wouldn't allow their children to be in, and they would make that decision for their children based on their own experience, which may well be incomplete. I'm not happy for my child to be in an environment which encourages hypocrisy, and is entirely against christian teaching. Christian ethos, my ass!!

Educationally they may well be superior, but I don't believe by much, and this is less important to me than teaching my child what I believe is right. I am fanatical about explaining to my children that what I do is what I believe to be right, but is not necessarily right and they MUST decide for themselves.

Luckily dd1 doesn't want to go to this school, so I don't need to have a moral conversation with her.

Pouffepants Have you looked at the admission criteria on their website? DD and DS2 went to a CofE school. One of their first criteria was 'looked after children'. Within the children who got in on churchgoing grounds there was a wide variety of backgrounds, probably wider than in most schools.

Yes, you're probably right on that count, and that's a good thing.

But they still exclude anyone who's parents don't have the wherewithall to apply, the very children who don't have anyone to look out for them. The church should be seeking these children out specifically IMO.

I would also be concerned that looked-after children would be singled out as the only children who don't attend church. Although that's probably not true since most stop attending once they get in.

There are also something like 10 places for the community, but I don't live close enough for that.

If they are going to divide along religious lines, then they should follow their own teachings at least.