To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough

[DreamingofSummer]

Even after 23 years

hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

First in the list, can Kelvin 'bastard' Mackenzie stop being brought onto our tv screens as some sort of 'I say it how it is' media pundit?
Is there anyone, anywhere wanting to listen to his vile ranting anymore, especially after yesterday's vertict.

If, every time you see Kelvin Mackenzie on a TV programme, you feel somehow revolted, you might wish to complain to Ofcom using this form.

I was at Hillsborough that day, it changed my life. I and many others suffered terrible PTSD - it wasnt just a tragedy for Liverpool, it was a tragedy for Sheffield, where so many kind and decent people came to help, make cups of tea, and offer support - my family were some of them. I worked in the hospital where the injured and dying were brought and I spoke to some of the relatives. It was a terrible terrible time and every time I see it on the news again it breaks my heart all over again and I relive every hateful moment. I hate the apportioning of blame, and some of you may not want to read this, but some of the fans should take responsibility for their actions - I could write pages about this - but where I was standing, many fans arrived at 3pm straight out of the pub, pushing violently and not caring about others in their way. Yes, it was a combination of many things, but where I worked, I saw caring and devestated ambulance workers, nurses, and yes, police - they are people too and not all of them should be tarred with the brush you use for some.

'guineapig', the evidence says that the police were the one's responsible for opening the gates so the overcrowding and crush took place.
Yes, maybe some fans had had a drink, but if they hadn't been shoved into pens that eventually killed 96 people the whole scenario wouldn't have happened.
Can't you see that?

YANBU - there are 41 people who could have survived, nearly 50% of the victims of Hillsborough didn't need to perish. The cover up is shocking.

Op yanbu. i am not a big football fan and nor am i from anywhere near Liverpool but that doesn't stop me having huge amounts of sympathy for the victims families something that seems to be lacking from some posters.

what i found shocking about yesterdays report was the level of cover up by the police especially as by this time the force was meant to have cleaned up its act with widespread corruption wiped out. clearly that was not the case and i doubt it is the case now - think of the met and the news of the world debacle.

I for one am glad that the victims families showed merseyside mentality, as one delightful poster put earlier and showed the widespread corruption by police at this time. i do hope that they do finally get justice and those responsible are taken to account so that it shows that this is never acceptable and help others in the police force speak out.

utterly shocked and angered by the repeated lies.

I gather the report points out there had been crush injuries at Hillsborough before - fortunately no-one had died on that occasion, it was 'only' broken bones. The council knew it wasn't safe, the club knew it wasn't safe, the FA knew it wasn't safe, the police knew it wasn't safe...

many fans arrived at 3pm straight out of the pub, pushing violently and not caring about others in their way I have been in a couple of nasty situations where people go hurt in crushes. Thankfully, nothing approaching the terror and horror of Hillsborough.

There was a particularly nasty gig where one girl was airlifted away and a lot of people were hurt or scared. In those cases, most of the crowd were completely bladdered and shoving each other. In my case though, the people on site treated everyone well, asked the crowd to back off in good time, collapsed barriers, lifted people out of the crowd (frequently over the heads of others) and stopped the gig so that people would back off. Would it have been my fault for being drunk that day if someone died? Of course not. That is even assuming that the fans behaved this way, which doesn't seem to be the case.

I have also had the misfortune to see this kind of bad Policing myself. At the Criminal Justice Bill march in London. At the end of the march, instead of letting people disperse into the park, the Police kept us hemmed in against a tube entrance (a ramp). They had horses and people got very panicked and some people were jumping into the tube entrance to get away from the crush. It was terrifying. The next day the newspapers were full of how we had 'rioted' and how the marchers were provoking the Police. Utter bollocks.

As a serious question

Who do you think should be prosecuted for Hillsborough?

Who in the police should be called to answer for Hillsborough?
Should the FA be called to answer why they allowed such a match to be played in an unsafe ground?
There are calls for the man who led the first enquiry in to Hillsborough to resign his post and he wasn't even there that day.

I think a Leveson-type inquiry would be the best place to determine potential criminal culpability.

Also there will likely be new inquests.

guineapig Even if some of the fans had been to the pub beforehand - so what? Having a drink before a sporting event isn't an offence.

Falsifying statements is a crime. Perverting the course of justice is a crime. Serious negligence of health and safety standards which ultimately leads to deaths is a crime. Libel is a civil offence.

The fans were guilty of none of those things.

Oh my fucking word!

When was was turning up at 3pm after having a pint a crime. They were on a day out, going to watch a match. They were not going to work to ensure the safety of thousands!

Most of the fans who turned up late had been stuck on trains or coaches that had been delayed.

I'm sorry guineapig but it was the polices job to control the crowd and they failed.

They could have called for the game to be delayed.

They could have closed off the tunnel before opening the gates.

They could have opened the gates onto the pitch as soon as they realised there was a problem.

But most of all, they could have admitted 23 Years ago that mistakes had been made and took responsibility.

I'm truly sorry you had to witness that day first hand. So did the Liverpool fans who have also lived for 23 years with survivers guilt and the majority of the country blaming them for the deaths of there families, friends and fellow fans.

Boney - I'm not sure.
But these are some of my thoughts.

Duckenfield - he gave the order to open the gate, and then lied and said fans had kicked it in. At the very least, perverting the course of justice. He was also in charge of the entire security operation. The year before Liverpool played at Hillsborough, and it was run by Duckenfield's predecessor. Then, a system of repeated ticket checks, and funnelling of fans down different routes had been established outside the stadium, none of which was done in '89, which was what lead to the crush outside the stadium.

Whoever doctored evidence, and/or put pressure on junior officers to change statements. Perverting the course of justice again, as the minimum - not sure whether consipracy is a charge but it should be!

Whoever made the decision not to let ambulances onto the pitch, whether an individual or a group decision - that could have saved lives and heads should roll big time.

That, for me, would be a bare minimum.
I would also want someone to have to answer for the 3.15 cut-off time, whether it's the coroner, or (more likely) the people who leant on him.

Voldemort you said it far more eloquently than I could.

baby Yes there is a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. And it should be applied in this case.

This has taken way to long for the families mainly, and for those who lost their lives on that terrible day, they'll never be forgotten, and the fans who never gave up. I have a lot of respect for everyone who pushed and pushed to get to this point.

Everyone involved in the cover up should be more than ashamed of themselves.

JFT96 YNWA

I think it becomes a bit clearer if we take football out of it, because it removes some of the stereotypes.

We've all been on the motorway when somebody speeds past us. We've probably all gone a bit above speed limits but I'm talking the guy who roars past at 120 mph. We all know it goes on.
Imagine a pile up. Kids are involved.
Imagine the police don't divert traffic round but actually send more cars into it, to avoid the traffic jam further back.
Imagine they prevent emergency services from reaching the scene.
And then imagine they say "But drivers speed. It was that that caused the accident. They brought it on themselves by going far too fast."
They use those 120mph people to discredit everyone involved and to hide their own culpability.

In that situation, not one person would say 'but hey, they're right - people do speed. I've been on the motorway and seen people do it, my FIL was there when someone drove at 130mph, so maybe the police (senior officers) had a point to act the way they did!' You'd say 'Well hang on a minute, maybe there are people that drive at a ridiculous pace, but you still get an ambulance there ASAP, you still try to get people out of the cars.....'
And none of the other excuses would wash either (they'd been in the pub and tried to get there quick). It's because it was football and fans had the reputation of being little better than animals.

And I would dispute that anyway - I attended matches at Spurs from around 1985/86, when it was standing on the lower terraces. We went every home game without fail. I never saw violence, and I never felt unsafe. I have since had friends ask if I wasn't scared, because of all the fighting. Well, my folks wouldn't have taken me as a small child if it had been that bad, if serious fights were guaranteed at every game. It was bad, it did exist, and it was not pleasant, but it was not as bad as the media liked to portray. So I think this image of all fans as hooligans and all matches as excuses for riots was OTT and has a lot to answer for. (My mum went to a match where there was a streaker, and it got portrayed as a pitch invasion in the match report after. Really? One guy with his pride and joy on show is a pitch invasion???)

Gosh, that was random. Sorry!

LineRunner babybythesea

thank you for your responses.

My worry is that with all of the calls for various people to be prosecuted it will turn in to a (political point scoring) witch hunt.

babybythesea that streaker was probably a man called Mark Roberts, another scouser :o who has toured the world and streaked at some of the biggest sporting events there are, including the Superbowl.

Have been discussing this topic on the 'in the news' section of MN. Today I commented along the lines of wishing there had been more about it on MN. Then I saw this thread...

It's idiots like Karlos who have perpetuated prejudices which have stuck to innocent victims and their families for the last 23 years. Besides ignoring the evidence which was presented yesterday, she is trying to imply that Scousers revel in misery.
I'm not from Liverpool but I have lived here for years, there is a huge fighting spirit associated with the Hillsborough case - a big contributing factor to the fact that those involved never gave up and got the truth as we saw yesterday. But, the support for them is not just nationwide but worldwide. It transcends any football rivalry and is about justice. These weren't hooligans, they were people who simply went to a football match and never came home. And thankfully most people on this thread realise that, and show compassion and empathy.

I think that you need to start by asking who did something wrong?

Who was actually involved in doctoring evidence? Who gave orders for some of the very bad decisions made?

If someone had no hand in a decision, they can't be prosecuted.
You can't, for example, as far as I'm aware, prosecute the person who told the mother of one dead boy that her son was the property of the coroner and she wasn't allowed to touch him to say goodbye. That's sickening and morally repugnant, but I don't think it's illegal.

there's enough evidence to go after particular people whose poor decision making cost lives, as well as the people who fabricated evidence. It doesn't need to be a witch-hunt, but people do need to held accountable and responsible for their actions.

I've turned up to watch football matches slightly worse for wear. Does that mean it would've been ok for me to have been directed into pens which were already crammed with people

The facts have been revealed at last and still there are people intent of continuing the cover up

The first thing that needs to happen is for the inquiry findings to be overturned and new hearings to be held. After that who knows, but from the evidence that's emerged peverting the course of justice, perjury and even manslaughter charges look highly probable.

And this wasn't a football tragedy. It was a tradgy.

I agree that it's about accountability. With regards to who should actually be prosecuted, I think it's the people in senior positions who gave the orders for reports to be altered, investigations into victims criminal records, or testing a ten year old for alcohol. These people were perverting the course of justice and that is against the law.

tradegy