To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough

[DreamingofSummer]

Even after 23 years

hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

Hooliganism was prevalent amongst many supporters in the 80's, not just Liverpool supporters, of course. But it's ok, let's just blame Liverpool for all of it.

I'm proud to count myself as an "adopted" scouser. I love this city. I love the people. I've watched it develop and grow over the years I've been here.

Today, it was proven that what we knew in Liverpool about Hillsborough was true. What I'm beginning to realise is that what we know to be true still doesn't matter to some people. The actions of a minority before Hillsborough are still going to make some people believe that Liverpool fans caused this, by association with their reputation. From what I remember in the 80's though is that Milwall fans, Leeds fans, other clubs fans were horrendous too (I'm picking those two as examples because they stick out in my mind - they weren't the only ones though!). The tone of some posts suggests that Liverpool were the worst. They weren't. Really weren't.

What matters now is that Hillsborough should be separated from reputations. The intention of those in authority was to shift blame. To exploit reputations, to smear the victims and their families - families who have conducted themselves with so much dignity.

my view on hillsborough after today's exposure of the police is shock at the level of dishonesty practised by the police and other authorities in allowing these deaths to be covered up. the police started the cover up before the fans bodies were cold, on the actual day of the tragedy. that police force should have been disbanded but instead they all got away with their terrible behaviour and no doubt, retired on full pensions. what an absolute disgrace.

IF there has been wrongdoing, ffs? Karlos, you seem to have a hard time understanding the situation. The report of the independent panel shows the dead were the victims of incompetent policing and a cover-up by the police, other emergency services and the legal system. There HAS been wrongdoing, that's the whole point.

You also seem to assume that anyone who does grasp the situation is an overly-emotional Liverpudlian - because in your world Liverpudlians are all reduced to some cartoon stereotype drawn up by Boris Johnson. I'm not from Liverpool and can't stand football, FWIW.

Absolutely, creighton, the scale of the cover up is mind blowing. Those poor families struggling on for justice for so many years - it is so sad.

Karlos, that's the whole point of the panel, they have considered the mass of evidence dispassionately. Maybe you should take a look at them hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/the-independent-panel/ and the evidence hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/.

Karlos, are you a Tory by any chance?

Fans used to pee on the police at Aston Villa too.

I'm from a very middle class area, many miles from Barnsley, not that it's got anything to do with anything.

What has been presented today is evidence, carefully considered in a measured and dispassionate fashion. What needs to happen now, as a minimum, is a fresh inquest.

Deary me, I do hope Karlos has been on the vino as otherwise her responses indicate a lack of understanding of the correct time and place for the expression of contentious opinions.

And exactly why do you get to decide when and where contentious opinions may be expressed, eh? Who died and made you God?

yanbu.

And am so impressed by the tenacity of the campaigners.

It is the sort of thing most people know instinctively, Karlos, they don't need to be told. Sorry you find it so hard.

If it's necessary to give background on fan behaviour/attitude surely it's necessary to give background on police behaviour/attitude?

Even the Thatcher government, who were more closely aligned with the police than any UK government before or since, though it necessary to bring in PACE because the police en masse could not be trusted not to beat confessions out of people and fabricate evidence.

There certainly needs to be a much deeper investigation now into who gave the authority to alter the statements of police officers, and who authorised the feeding of false information to Whites News Agency. I actually feel sorry for the many decent serving police officers who, again, must be demoralised by another revelation of corruption. Though most of all I feel sorry for the families of the victims. So many were very young.

Is it not common knowledge by the police nowadays that football hooligans and football fans are completely different. Football hooligans are small pockets of people who go to a match only to cause fights. Nobody died at Hilsborough due to the violent acts of others. Therefore its a moot point. However I will agree it did give the lies told over the past 23 years a hill to roll down and gather speed.

Let's get something very clear, if it wasn't for football fans that day, there would have been countless more fatalities.

The merseyside mentality that karlos talks about brought about the truth today. If we had all gone home and believed the shite that was spouted or even just accepted it as something we couldn't change would have been wrong.

I hate to say this, and please read to the end before you judge me.

Karlos has a point. Liverpool, both the city and the team had a reputation at the time of Hillsborough. Scouser jokes were doing the rounds, and all focused on scousers being poorly educated, theiving benefit cheats.

Football also had a bad reputation.

These things made it easy for the lies to fester. It made it easy for the police to discredit liverpool fans and for the rest of the country to say, "Look they've done it again".

I'm not normally one for conspirasy theories but at the time I did think, "I wonder if the coops thought it would be a laugh to have the Liverpool fans packed tight". I have no evidence for this, it's just a reflection of the way football fans (yes I know only a minority were hooligans) were viewed, somewhere worse than animals.

Remember this, at the time the government wanted football fans to carry ID cards, the law was drafted, ready to become law and was abandoned because the Taylor report said if it had been in force Hillsborough would have been worse.

The police covered up and covered up and discredited the dead, the survivors and the families of both. They had legal advice paid for by the taxpayer from day one. But they could only do this because of the political situation at the time and the reputation football had at the time.