To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough

[DreamingofSummer]

Even after 23 years

hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

I also think that the government of the time that sought to demonise the working class in other situations would have been quick to believe the worst of football fans.

YADNBU

YANBU at all. All those responsible should be prosecuted.

JFT96

At what point do you start making people responsible for Hillsborough?

Somewhere you are bang out of order bringing Heysel into this. The whole point is the web of lies spun about the fans' behaviour contributing to the Hillsborough disaster has been exposed to be just that, a web of lies. Spun at every level by those who we, and they, should be able to trust.

Forget what the Scum claimed in its despicable article. The only people who pissed on those dying fans were senior police chiefs, politicians, the coroner at the original inquest, Sheffield City Council officials and Kelvin "Cunt of the Century" McKenzie.

somewhere the difference with Heysel is LFC never tried to cover up the tradedy, the victims were never blamed. Shame on you!

And those responsible were prosecuted.

YANBU, I couldn't agree more. How disgusting it took the Mackenzie until now to apologise, complete scum.

Reading this makes me bless anew the day I left Liverpool, never to return...
It's hard to see how LFC could have covered up Heysel. The fact remains that the reason peopl found it so easy to believe the worst of Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough was because the behaviour of some of them was so utterly appalling so very, very frequently.
I shouldn't need to point out that this doesn't mean I'm casting aspersions on the character of any of the individuals who perished that day, but given the general tenor of this thread, it's probably necessary, alas.

One of my classmates and one of my teachers were at Hillsborough. They survived thank goodness (though with injuries); neither were the same again afterwards (boy was only 14).

I was in tears listening to the first 20 minutes of PM this evening- as a child I did not comprehend the enormity of what happened at the time.

My heart goes out to all the families affected by this, they have my every sympathy. If anything can possibly go some way towards restitution, it should happen. There is sadly no way to repair all those lives.

actually Karlos the demonisation of football fans, the working class and northern people served a POLITICAL purpose - much of it was based on fabrication - no love lost between Liverpool fans and me - I am an Evertonian - Heysel kept us out of Europe

Hillsborough was a totally different situation though - and to even link it to Heysel is to play the same blame game Thatcher and Scum tried to back then - shameful

YANBU JFT96 fuck the s*n and anyone bringing Heysel into it. Way to twist the knife into the people who the PM correctly said were victims of a double injustice.

No, it wasn't fabrication. My father was a Merseyside police officer from the 60s until the late 90s. Like many respectable working class men, he was wholly alienated from football by what it and many of its supporters became during the 70s and 80s. He won't even watch the game now on TV - and this, a man who as a child and adolescent never missed a home game. he spent his Saturdays for the best part of 2 decades being spat on, beaten up and yes, I'm afraiod, pissed on, by Liverpool supporters.
I'm told it's better now. I'm not likely to find out; wild horses wouldn;t drag me near a football match I'm afraid.

Poor show, Karlos. Alas indeed.

Oh, and evertonians. Wear that badge with pride, eh?

I agree with gordy. I think, if anything, the fact that the authorities knew that people would easily believe the worst of football fans makes what they did even worse. Yes, there had been problems with hooligans and all clubs but it was NOT a factor at Hillsborough and yet the police etc manipulated that stereotype in order to cover up their errors. The people who died were ordinary people, like you or me, out to support their team and enjoy a game of football. That they were killed is bad enough but then to have them blamed is unspeakable. And the fact that some people are still harking back to suggestions of hooliganism despite all the evidence revealed today is unbelievable.

There need to be prosecutions.

I'm afraid I won;t do that, Squirrel. I'm allowed to express my opinion and state the facts as I know them to be. I am not seeking to excuse the telling of lies and the fabrication of evidence, if that is what happened. And it was obvious, with hindsight, that the methods of crowd control and accommodation of football goers at the time was a disaster waiting to happen. But the hysteria dn distortion of the reality of what football was in the 1980s is more than I can stomach, and demonstrates the mentality which is a big part of the reason why I left Liverpool, and why I dislike so much going back.

SpudtheScarecrow
"Yes, there had been problems with hooligans and all clubs but it was NOT a factor at Hillsborough"
The fences/pens where there because of what hooligans did at other matches. If the fences had not been there (however inept the senoir police handling was) the disaster would not have happened. It has to be factored in to the overall picture.

I do - I am also proud of my home town - I am glad I am from a place of such passion and warmth

and it's based on your fathers experience not yours :)

There was a problem with some supporters in the 70's and 80's - much worse in clubs down south but that has no impact on Hillsborough despite the lies told by the Tory press

Karlos and Somewhere, what is it about today's events are you not able to understand?

Yes there was terrible hooliganism around that time, noone would deny that. But this disaster was in no way whatsoever caused by the behaviour of the fans. that is the whole point!!!!. The police etc used the people's views of football fans to twist this terrible terrible event and ensure that they were not see as responsible.

How, after all that we have heard / read today, can you still say "yes but..."

How?

Fencing was a lazy and dangerous solution and should never have happened - again the warped perception of those in power towards working class people made it okay to cage people in like animals - they thought ALL football fans where animals anyway

the CHILDREN who died at Hillsborough where not

I was born in Liverpool and lived there until my early 20s. So I can assure that my opinion of the city, and the mentality which does so much to hold it back and make it something of a joke to the rest of the country, is based on my personal experience.
Passion and warmth untempered by reason and restraint are not desirable qualities. As this thread amply demonstrates.

'Hysteria'

The police caused deaths by mismanagement of the crowd which lead to people being crushed.

Then they failed to adequately help the injured.

Then they then tried to claim the crush was the fault of fans.

How is any of that hysteria?

Boney that makes no sense, I'm afraid. The ground had a capacity, the capacity was in part determined by the presence of the fences, sure. You are essentially blaming hooligans who where not there.

Grounds still have maximum capacities and high fences between the fans and the pitch to stop pitch invasions. If the police did the same again would it still be the fault of past hooligans?

And if you want to talk 'facts', please lets talk about the police in the 1970s and 1980s. Obviously not on this thread because that would be deliberate derailmemnt and I'm sure you don't want that. Lets talk about what they did. How they treated people. One miscarriage of justice after another. Lets ralk about how PACE was brought in to try to control their behaviour.