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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough

216 replies

DreamingofSummer · 12/09/2012 18:25

Even after 23 years

hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

OP posts:
Liketochat1 · 13/09/2012 06:46

I think there should be prosecutions, in particular as it sounds as though documents were doctored.

Megatron · 13/09/2012 07:14

Karlos I'm afraid your 'free thinking' opinions just sound like a personal attack on a city that you hate. I don't like Dundee very much but I would be devastated if so many people died there needlessly and it was proved that there was a massive cover up.

Football hooliganism was rife at that time in many places, not just Liverpool. My own father was a serving police officer from the late 60s until the 90s and spent many fairly horrendous hours policing Old Firm games in Glasgow. He never let these morons who treated him like shit change his opinion on a game or the City that he loved. More importantly, nor would he ever have been party to a cover up.

These people died in terrifying and tragic circumstances and my dad would have been the first to say that those who chose to cover this up should be prosecuted. They committed a crime and should be brought to book.

Itsgottabebags · 13/09/2012 07:52

YNBU I hope that the families get the justice they deserve.

hackmum · 13/09/2012 07:58

YADNBU. The way the police behaved, both on the day itself, and in the subsequent cover-up, was absolutely disgusting.

As for Kelvin McKenzie, it sickens him every time I hear or see him interviewed as a pundit on a news programme. People like him shouldn't even be admitted to civilised society. What a vile man.

Lovecat · 13/09/2012 08:16

YADNBU and I hope the bastards responsible for the cover up and the refusal to let more than 2 ambulances onto the pitch when people were still alive not only get prosecuted to the fullest extent but also rot in hell.

But then I'm an over-emotional ex-Merseysider, apparently Hmm

FWIW my best friend & I went to every home match of the 1982-86 seasons (aged 16-20) and the most trouble we ever had was from scally lads trying to chat us up at the bus stop on the way home. It was Chelsea, Millwall and West Ham that had the worst reputations for violence.

SammySquirrel · 13/09/2012 08:20

Lovecat, I don't think they let any ambulances onto the pitch. As I understand it, those ambulance drivers ignored their instructions and went on anyway.

sashh · 13/09/2012 08:25

Extrospektiv
You are of course right, the other stuff is just BS.

I'm in the process of reading the report, I had no idea there had a been a crush, similar a couple of years before. No one died, but people broke bones.

I'm also staggered by how slow the police were to react to the crush but how quick they were to get their (fictional) story out.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 13/09/2012 08:31

I'd laugh at someone claiming to be a free and independent thinker who says things like "if there's evidence" if it weren't such a bloody serious matter.

There is evidence. That is the point of the independent (actually independent, not "independent" used as an asinine synonym for "deliberately contrary") report.

Shakirasma · 13/09/2012 09:10

My DH, now 47, has been a Liverpool supporter all his life and followed them home and away from his teens into his 30's. He, like the vast majority of fans has never ever been involved in hooliganism.

He was at Hillsborough that day, he was caught in the crush in the tunnel where most of the victims lost their lives. They were herded in there like cattle by the police, and even when it became clear it was a hellish situation the police kept herding, like lambs to the slaughter. He can clearly remember thinking "I need to stay on my feet, if I get knocked over I'm dead". And that's all any of them could do, just try and sty of their feet against the surge coming behind them.

That disaster on that day had nothing to do with hooligans, it was all about poor decisions by the police. And the fact they tried to cover up their mistakes is sickening.

OP, YANBU.

Shakirasma · 13/09/2012 09:26

And for the record, DH is not a Liverpudlian, never lived anywhere near Liverpool so his opinion of it being the police at total fault is not based on any kind of community spirit. It's based on his personal experience of that terrible day, and on being crowd handled at hundreds of other matches before and after.

babybythesea · 13/09/2012 09:42

There's another thread on this, on the In The News board, which I've posted a lot on so I won't repeat it all.

I did want to say though that in all their pointing fingers at the medical services, I hope that someone remembers to excuse the ambulance driver in the second (and last) ambulance to leave the pitch. I have heard him interviewed a few times and he is clearly traumatised by the whole thing. He went on to the pitch and collected Victoria Hicks, the younger of two sisters, leaving behind her older sister Sarah, in the belief that another ambulance would come for her, which of course it never did. He has told of feeling guilty for not doing more, for maybe not staying on the pitch with the specialist equipment instead of taking it away and off to hospital, for maybe not trying to cram more people in - listening to it, it is clear that he is someone else who has never and will never get over it, and he believes that, with hindsight, he failed people who subsequqently died. But he was not in a position to know, he was not to know that no other ambulances he would come - he did his job in good faith, and tried to save someone's life. It is not his fault that she died anyway, and it is not his fault that others died. I keep hearing this thing about the way the emergency services acted, and I keep thinking "I hope he doesn't think they mean him."

It's also worth noting that my grandad went to Hillsborough a couple of years earlier and came back then saying "Someone's going to be killed there". They had a similar incident but on that occasion, police reacted as though fans were people first and foremost, rather than hooligans, and got them out of the gates by the pitch. They (the fans) then sat round the edge of the pitch for the duration of the game. Slightly different police attitude (and still in the midst of ideas about football hooliganism, it's worth noting) and no lives were lost. Why on earth were these signs not attended to?

AndFanjoWasHisNameO · 13/09/2012 09:56

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Lovecat · 13/09/2012 09:59

I didn't realise that, Sammy :(

I do hope that poor ambulance driver doesn't torture himself any more over this (although sadly I doubt that will happen) and that the medical services are exonerated. This falls squarely with the police authorities, from everything I've read.

Lovecat · 13/09/2012 10:01

And what AndFanjo said :o

gordyslovesheep · 13/09/2012 10:24

Well said andfanjo Karlos just sounds like some one with issues trying to bury then under a layer of denial

AuntAlexandra · 13/09/2012 10:39

Andfanjo well put - thankyou

ovenchips · 13/09/2012 11:14

Karlos

Can I ask a question? Have you read the independent report that was linked to at the top of the page? There is a summary report which is still fairly thorough (14 pages on my phone but it's just a little phone so not too onerous).

Could I suggest that you read the summary report then come back on to post what your thoughts are then? I'm making an assumption you haven't read it. I do think at the moment you are maintaining your stance of independent thought by offering comment coloured by personal feelings rather than factual objections. But surely independent thought based on mere opinion and contrary to known facts is closer to hot air than anything else?

I really would be interested in what you would say after reading the report.

OrangeFireandGoldashes · 13/09/2012 12:26

Well said babybythesea (and AndFanjo on a different tack).

Tony Edwards, the ambulance driver in question, shouldn't just be excused from the criticism of the emergency services, he should be given a fucking medal. Seriously. The man is a hero.

VoldemortsNipple · 13/09/2012 13:49

There was more than one individual in the forces who worked hard to save lives. Kevin Williams' mum speaks of the WPC who held her son as he died. She spoke out years ago to let her know he was still alive at 4pm. Another PC was on tv Monday night telling how he fought to save somebody's life.

While these people were on the pitch trying to save lives David Ducenfield sat in his ivory tower spinning his web of lies.

lisaro · 13/09/2012 15:35

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19582072

Well at least someone in a position to make a noise agrees.

MrsKeithRichards · 13/09/2012 16:36

Front page of the Scottish Sun today, not one mention.

VoldemortsNipple · 13/09/2012 18:30

:o mrskeithrichards that is scandalous.

But then again Hilsborough was never seen as a national tragedy :(

VoldemortsNipple · 13/09/2012 18:32

That was meant to be a shocked face. I forgot : o on my phone is (grin)

(shocked) mrskeithrichards that is scandalous!

MrsKeithRichards · 13/09/2012 18:45

All the other Scottish editions had it on the front page. Disgusting paper.

maristella · 13/09/2012 19:22

OP YANBU, it's time for justice. It was time for justice 23 years ago, there are no more excuses to be made