To think my brother is being a misogynist about this?

[VivaLeBeaver]

He's normally lovely and sensible but he said something so stupid the other day I could barely reply. We started arguing but then I dropped it as where we were wasn't very appropriate.

I was talking to my younger brother all about the evils of how the NHS is been privatised by stealth with rationing of services, ops, drugs, etc. My older brother said that this doesn't happen. I disagreed and gave the example of sterilisation - how hard many women are finding it now to get sterilised.

My brother agreed that woman shouldn't be allowed to be sterilised as they could take the pill or have an implant/coil instead. I pointed out many women aren't happy with pumping hormones into their body, all the side effects, etc.

He said that sterilisation is just cosmetic surgery as you're making your body do something (or not do something) its naturally supposed to do.

I was staggered that some people would think this. Unfortunately I couldn't get into a discussion with him about contraception as a feminist issue, nor give him other examples such as increasingly limited hip replacements.

Women are paying - in terms of time, effort, physical toll on body, career sacrifice, social stigma. Why aren't we doing more to hold the 'fathers' accountable. When fathers are made to live up to their responsibilities in the same way that mothers usually are, then we're in a position to talk about parents being made to take personal responsibility for a) having children in the first place and b) providing for them. We are a long way off that point.

I would like all men & women aged 16 & over to be given a 'condom allowance' - a small pack of very basic condoms available each month - to be given out by local GP surgery if required - one pack free for under 18s / those on benefits; & at a very low price for other people.

That's the ultimate in preventative contraception - helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies AND STDs...

Re: Sterilisation & Vasectomies; my Dad's friend had a vasectomy in his late 20s - he was in a happy marriage; his wife never wanted children & he was in love so had a vasectomy as an 'easy' means of contraception.

Then they divorced & he remarried - then he suddenly realised he did want children after all with his 2nd wife. But the vasectomy could not be reversed in his case.

I think that it definitely pays to think very hard about procedures like that; as no-one can truly predict how their future will turn out - personally i'd only have a sterilization if i had serious medical reasons.
But everyone is different, it's the individual's choice - i'd just like to see people have to get counselling first to make sure it's the right choice for them.

I do not want anymore children full stop. the longer time goes on the more and more the feeling gets stronger.

terrible PND on both children and with DC1 i have been to the mill and back i could not do it again.

I am glad my DH feels the same and had a vacecomy, if it ever fails i wouldn't continue with the pregnancy ( hope that don't offend anyone)

thats why contraception should be free, because a baby is a life long commitment.

Dahlen Wed 12-Sep-12 20:56:28
And TBH, if we only allowed those who could afford to have children to have them, the population would implode within a couple of generations and we'd be in serious trouble...Only in a arse-backwards economy can we say that rearing children and not earning money is failing to take personal responsibility. Someone has to rear these children. Why not their parent?

WTF?
XW and I paid for our kids.
Why shouldn't anyone else?

Who magically appeared these kids?
2 people. 2 people should pay and/or raise them.

OneMoreChap. I totally agree. So why is it that in the case of separated families, less than 40% of children receive any maintenance from the other parent?

less than 40% of children recieve any maintenance from the other parent

Just out of interest, would you mind sharing the source of that statistic please?

I would have thought its something that's very hard to put an accurate figure on as so many parents have private arrangements.

Amber, I realise that illness, redundancy, disability etc could happen to any of us, that's why I support the welfare state as a safety net.

I don't see what that's got to do with free or paid for contraception. Parents should be in a position to be able to afford their children before they conceive. What happens after that is another subject entirely.

Gingerbread survey - taken from DWP research regarding private arrangements. Of the CSA/CMEC's own records, which you can access through their website, it shows that more than half (52% I think) of children using its services receive £5 a week or less.

Thank you Dahlen.

It's disgusting that so many parents don't pay for their children.

Isn't deciding that only the wealthy should have children a form of social engineering? Something like 75% of families receive state assistance in some form.

I take your point though. I completely agree that far too many people have children without really thinking about what's involved and how they will support their children. I just don't think it's as simple as saying don't have them unless you can afford them, because being able to afford them is often the result of factors outside your control, rather than indicative of your worth as a person or your parenting ability.

I don't see what that's got to do with free or paid for contraception. Parents should be in a position to be able to afford their children before they conceive. What happens after that is another subject entirely

Well it was you that brought up the subject of parents paying for their children!

I gave you valid reasons of why some parents can't.

Dahlen is right about the statistics, I also mentioned earlier in the thread that most single parents receive nothing from the absent parent and as Dahlen says the majority that do receive support get the minimum of £5 a week due to the absent parent being on benefits. worth noting also that that £5 is the maximum that can be takenless of how many children they have regard and is often split between several children.

No, I don't think it's social engineering. It's taking personal responsibility.

I would have thought the statistic for families recieving some form of state assistance was higher than that, what with child benefit being state assistance that nearly all of us are entitled to.

Personally, I don't feel that families who don't have at least one parent working full time should be having children. That's not saying that only the wealthy should have children at all. The cost of living, especially housing, is high and wages are relatively low at the moment, I recognise that and I don't think people should be prevented from having children. I would just like to see people considering whether they can afford children before they have them without having to claim benefits to which they are already entitled without children.

I just don't think it's as simple as saying don't have them unless you can afford them, because being able to afford them is often the result of factors outside your control, rather than indicative of your worth as a person or your parenting ability

Yes.

Most parents that end up as single parents do so because of divorce/separation and were in a position to afford them when they had them.

Shit happens and everything can change, as I said it can happen to anyone.

That didn't make sense, sorry! What I mean is that someone who already has to claim help for housing, council tax, general income, shouldn't have children if having children will mean that have to claim even more state money to support them. I don't include disabled people in that btw.

Personally, I don't feel that families who don't have at least one parent working full time should be having children

All the more reason to ensure adequate access to free contraception.

AmberLeaf Thu 13-Sep-12 10:41:41
Most parents that end up as single parents do so because of divorce/separation and were in a position to afford them when they had them.

Depends who people decide to breed with, I suppose. XW and I bred with each other, and detested each other in the end, but my paying way more than CSA assessment was never in doubt.

There must be a lot of women having kids with very scummy men, is all I can say.

There must be a lot of women having kids with very scummy men, is all I can say.

There must be a lot of scummy men around for all these women to keep ending up having children with them.

Dahlen Thu 13-Sep-12 16:23:53
There must be a lot of scummy men around for all these women to keep ending up having children with them.

Why the ?

Sadly, some of the scummy bastards seem to take joy in fathering kids on 2 or 3 women.

Met one 3 years ago; he was delighted to tell me he had 5 kids by 3 different women. "Well, I see 3 of them sometimes, but it's not like I'm going to pay for them, izzit, I mean I don't see 'em that often."

He was in work, and I have no clue why he'd not been shopped up to the CSA. Oh, and each of the women after the first knew about all the others.

MAybe I misinterpreted you, but to me that just sounded like you were blaming the women for choosing to have children with feckless idiots rather than placing the blame where it belongs ? on the shoulders of the feckless.

I also think it's mistake to think that non-payers = benefit scum. You only have to take a look at the relationship boards on here to see how many employed fathers suddenly abdicate responsibility for maintenance once they separate from the mothers, even though up to that point they have often been apparently decent men. They can do this secure in the knowledge that many women won't use the CSA for fear of the post-separation relationship deteriorating even further, but if they do it will probably take months - sometimes years - for the claim to go through anyway.

Finally, human nature being what it is, some women simply believe that this time things will be different. Because he really loves them and by extension any child. That may make them gullible and naive, but still places the onus on the 'father' to change more than the mother in my book.

Nah. It's the feckless idiots at fault.

It is a bit hard to understand why the 3rd woman thought that scumbag would be different - and no, by no means are they all - in your awful phrase - "benefit scum". He was in work.

Fathers who don't pay - including some of the mouth-breathing F4J type - drive me to paroxysms of rage. I had a bad divorce. I had significant problems getting access to my kids. It never occurred to me to not pay for them, and it is beyond me how other men behave like that.

Having said that, XW and I made a lifestyle choice when we had kids, as we knew it would be expensive. We used second-hand/had hand-me-downs, and were both in professional work.

When I see some new mums - who're often quite broke going "Well, I'm not having anything second hand for my PFB" - I wonder how they cope. MY DC seem to have coped with second-hand stuff. But then, so do I

Call me a radical feminist, but no man has any business to have any opinion on what women should or shouldn't do with their bodies. I don't have an opinion on vasectomies because I don't have a penis.

If the resources on the NHS are so awfully precious to him, I'd suggest he target the alcoholics and drug addicts who are getting free treatment. Or maybe the men who are getting vasectomies.

one more chap loads and loads of these men are normal and fairly decent untill you part company with them. its after when they cannot sepperate there hatred of you from there responsability to fund there children that the refusals to pay happen.

outraged sometimes just sometimes you comeout with something fairly sensable but sadly you then shoot it down with your nasty twattish unworkable badly thought out rantings.

you do know the nhs is not free dont you. its paid for by us.

I know a woman who was obviously very discerning when it came to choosing her men. She had 5 children by 5 different men, ALL paid child support and had their children every week-end. When she enjoyed a single social life. I did feel sorry for the stepmums who never had a chance to enjoy a single social life at any weekend. But this mother of 5 was very lucky IMO.