To think my brother is being a misogynist about this?

[VivaLeBeaver]

He's normally lovely and sensible but he said something so stupid the other day I could barely reply. We started arguing but then I dropped it as where we were wasn't very appropriate.

I was talking to my younger brother all about the evils of how the NHS is been privatised by stealth with rationing of services, ops, drugs, etc. My older brother said that this doesn't happen. I disagreed and gave the example of sterilisation - how hard many women are finding it now to get sterilised.

My brother agreed that woman shouldn't be allowed to be sterilised as they could take the pill or have an implant/coil instead. I pointed out many women aren't happy with pumping hormones into their body, all the side effects, etc.

He said that sterilisation is just cosmetic surgery as you're making your body do something (or not do something) its naturally supposed to do.

I was staggered that some people would think this. Unfortunately I couldn't get into a discussion with him about contraception as a feminist issue, nor give him other examples such as increasingly limited hip replacements.

If you make people pay for contraception, it's will end up with women bearing an unfair responsibility for that. If men don't pay, they face very few consequences and it won't stop many of them from having sex. Arguing that women should refuse to have sex with a man who won't take responsibility is never going to work, just as it hasn't throughout history. Therefore, IMO saying people need to take personal responsibility for funding contraception is exactly the same thing as saying women need to take personal responsibility unless you factor in a way to make men more accountable for it.

Men need to be more accountable for financing the children they create regardless of whether contraception is free.

There are enough of them already that don't take responsibility and it's sickening. A CSA that does the job it was supposed to do would be a start. Give them more power so that they are on a level with HMRC in being able to recover money, and apply sanctions to thise who don't pay.

@outraged what if it leaves them without enough money for contraception?

Then they don't get the luxury of sex.

Instead the CSA is now charging women to use its services. Which kind of proves the point that this country overwhelmingly views contraception and children as the responsibility of women.

No, that proves the point that there are arses in government, not that people think children and contraception are the responsibilty of women only.

I agree with you that the fact women are going to be charged for the CSAs services is ridiculous. If anone has to pay it should be the person who is making their use neccesary by oly paying for children when forced to.

But the women didn't show personal responsibility by earning enough money to not use CSA

No, women are not showing personal responsibilty if they don't earn enough to cover half of what it costs to bring up their child, or children.

Single/divorced parents (women as they represent the majority) on the whole cover more than half (in fact all) of the costs to bring up children as it is the minority that get any child support from the non resident parent (men)

I know that Amber, I'm one of those mothers. My dc's Dad is great and pays what he can, but I cover well over half.

Strange that you sound more forgiving of your DCs Dad for only paying 'what he can' than those women who are 'not showing personal responsibility' if they dont earn enough to cover 'their' half.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Sep-12 17:16:42
Single/divorced parents (women as they represent the majority) on the whole cover more than half (in fact all) of the costs to bring up children as it is the minority that get any child support from the non resident parent (men)

Yep cost on all the rest of us.
Feckless bastards like that need to be strung up by their nadgers.

Why do women fall pregnant to these tossers?

Why do women fall pregnant to these tossers?

Well I think the question to ask should be why do these tossers get away with walking away from their children?

They are the ones doing it afterall.

To answer your question, I think that on the whole women are under the impression that they are in a stable relationship with a man that is on the same page as them.....often its children coming along and all the responsibility they bring that brings out the tosser in some men.

Not really. I know he'NHS brilliant Dad, he looks after his dc well, and they are provided with everything they need between us without us having to claim benefits. How we fund them and our financial arrangement is up to us.

The same goes for SAHPs. They might not earn, but if they have a private arrangement between them and the other parents as to who cares and who provides financially, and the children have all they need provided by the parents, then they have taken responsibilty.

No idea what happened to he's there.

picture this a women is in a relationship where she is raped and abused by a male. He controls all money and because of the household income she isn't able to get a free prescription for contraception. Where would that leave her.

Its all well and good saying take personal responsiblity, but thats not always the case. I know the above example is not always the case but it proves this is one thing that shouldn't be messing around with.

What about sahp who aren't contributing to their pension. Should they get a state pension?

It would leave her in a position not that far removed from the position she would be in if she couldn't pay for antibiotics.

That is an extreme example anyway, and I don't believe policies that affect the whole country should be based on such extreme examples.

Ethelb, in my opinion, yes, she should get a state pension. In the same way that I think we should all be able to rely on welfare if we really need to. But ideally, she should work for enough of her lifetime to pay enough tax to be entitled to a state pension, or she should make a private arrangement with whoever is supporting her.

i know it is an extreme example, but it does happen.

1 in 4 women will experience DV. 1 in 9 will be raped - usually by a partner or ex-partner. Women in the UK do NOT hold the majority of power over choosing sex, which means that neither to thy have full control over pregnancy. And it's not something that affects only a small minority.

And TBH, if we only allowed those who could afford to have children to have them, the population would implode within a couple of generations and we'd be in serious trouble. Not everything is measurable in cash terms. Women make up a significant contribution to rearing children in terms of time, effort, career sacrifice, etc, which should be offset against any money they fail to earn while rearing children. Only in a arse-backwards economy can we say that rearing children and not earning money is failing to take personal responsibility. Someone has to rear these children. Why not their parent?

Someone has to pay for these children. Why not their parent?

Someone has to pay for these children. Why not their parent?

Job loss/redundancy

Illness

Disability

Any of those things could happen to you tomorrow and then you, yes even you may not be able to pay for your children.

I have no words, I am in shock from some of the attitudes on this thread.
There is so far to go until women are truly equal