To think my brother is being a misogynist about this?

[VivaLeBeaver]

He's normally lovely and sensible but he said something so stupid the other day I could barely reply. We started arguing but then I dropped it as where we were wasn't very appropriate.

I was talking to my younger brother all about the evils of how the NHS is been privatised by stealth with rationing of services, ops, drugs, etc. My older brother said that this doesn't happen. I disagreed and gave the example of sterilisation - how hard many women are finding it now to get sterilised.

My brother agreed that woman shouldn't be allowed to be sterilised as they could take the pill or have an implant/coil instead. I pointed out many women aren't happy with pumping hormones into their body, all the side effects, etc.

He said that sterilisation is just cosmetic surgery as you're making your body do something (or not do something) its naturally supposed to do.

I was staggered that some people would think this. Unfortunately I couldn't get into a discussion with him about contraception as a feminist issue, nor give him other examples such as increasingly limited hip replacements.

I agree ethel

When I said its a feminist issue I didn't mean I think its something only women should be expected to deal with.

The impact of lack of access to contraception/abortion is greater to women.

So to hinder or remove access to either is discriminatory and misogynistic IMO.

Contraception does prevent illness. The NHS would have to pay for far more pregnancy and childbirth-related illness if it didn't fund contraception. For every £1 the nhs spends on contraception it saves £14. It is not a cost, it is a saving!

Contraception that people paid for themselves would do exactly the same thing.

"There is no reason why men couldn't contribute to the cost of contraception. If a man won't do that, then it seems to me thats a pretty good reason not to have sex with him."

An attitude that has worked so well in countries now ravaged by HIV

We are not other countries. We have access to contraception, third world countries that are ravaged by HIV don't. We would still have that access if people had to pay for it. The same way people pay for their own antibiotics, or inhalers, or beta blockers. I really don't see why people should be expected to pay for medication that keeps them alive when others don't have to pay for contraception that keeps them free from something as normal as pregnancy.

you are just not listening or you are a bit thick.

By costing the NHS £60 a year for my implant I have saved them £3000 on average per year by not being pregnant every year, so that people who are pregnant or ill can be treated as money is available as I have used contraception.

or do you think that people should fund their own pregnancies to show a bit of "personal responsibility"?

Amberleaf- as a pro-life/pro-family person I think "anti abortion is anti woman" is a disgusting statement because it lumps people who believe that unborn children should be allowed to live in with bigoted woman haters. (I don't want the abortion debate to start, I can understand you being pro-choice but please don't call people "misogynist" for restricting abortion. That is false and insulting.)

Applauds Outraged, you talk a lot of sense. I know that removing all free/subsidised contraception would have bad financial and social consequences though, so I believe in a compromise, perhaps the bottom two income deciles get it and above that payment is required. It is hardly expensive.

extrospective you have outed yourself as a republican on MN which means you are prob american. do you understand how the nhs works and the financial framework around it?

Just read this gem: "Yes, the financial savings we make because of free contraception are immeasurable, and significant, and are a good thing, but I maintain that that's only because if we didn't give it out free then we would have to fund more abortion and children that parents can't afford."

Why does "its only becuase" matter? Would you rather we lived ina perfect little world where people behaved how you would like them to?

Your opinions are worthless if they are based on a fantasy situation.

I am not American. I am British and understand the NHS perfectly, but I still have the right to criticise parts of it- this isn't communist China. Overall I'm glad of having the NHS as probably 95% of us are.

I was on a thread with other British AND American posters (plus one Canadian) discussing the US election and found it saturated in Obamamania, left-liberal talking points and race-baiting so I mentioned my pro-Romney position to counter that.

"outed myself"? Is it something to be ashamed of?

I would rather live in a perfect little world where people took responsibility for themselves, their finances, their bodies, their children and their choices.

My opinion is no more worthless than yours. They are both only individual opinions. It wasn't that long ago that free contraception was introduced, I'd hardly call that fact a fantasy.

Well done Outraged. Responsibility is a dirty word to liberals it seems

The US has access to contraception and they pay for it as do most people developed countries.

Personally I think that contraception should be heavily subsidised or free on the NHS. However I can understand that some people might disagree with me. I think that name calling (Ie. calling some a misogynist) is unfair.

We all have a right to an opinon. A true misogynist is someone who hates women. I don't think having the view that contraceptive services should be chargable is misogyny.

Please don't misuse the word "liberal" as a vague synonym for "lefty" unless you are talking about American politics. It does not mean the same thing in the UK.

@mad agreed.

here are some figures for the US which doesn not have contracpetion free at the point of access.

$11.1 billion
Public funds spent on the births of unintended babies in 2006 ($6.5 billion federal, $4.6 billion states)

$7 billion
Amount Medicaid and other government programs saved in 2008 by investing $1.9 billion in family planning centers (Guttmacher Institute)

theweek.com/article/index/225451/the-cost-of-birth-control-by-the-numbers

So financially it makes sense to make contraception free.

If you don't beleive that then you are happy to spend a lot more money on the consequences. That's nuts.

I do believe it makes financial sense for contraception for free!

If contraception wasn't free then like I said before we would have to fund the more expensive consequences of unwanted pregnancies, because apparantly, people who don't want to be pregnant are not capable of paying for contraception. If they not capable of paying for contraception, then they are not going to be capable of paying for a child are they? That much is obvious.

I just think it is a very sorry state of affairs when this is the reality of the situation.

I was confused by that too, I thought being liberal was all about personal responsibility etc, never understood people using it as a synonym for 'left wing' .

Also think that if we're making comparisons with the UK/NHS situation vs the US, it's important to remember that health insurance cover here is not the same - it rarely covers any pregnancy or maternity-related care, and certainly doesn't cover contraception. If we're going to scale back NHS provision or subsidy of these services, but insurers don't pick up the slack (which they might do, of course, if there's the demand for it) most of us will be in an even more difficult situation than most US women.

It takes two people to make a baby but somehow the phrase 'personal responsibility' when used to discuss contraception and babies, seems to apply to women only.

A dick, but not a misogynist.

TBH, I fail to see why "wimmen" aren't to be trusted with having a considered view of their fertility whatever their age.

If I'd gone to the doctor and asked for a vasectomy at 22, I'd have been... peeved to be sent away.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Sep-12 12:47:29
Contraception shouldnt be just a womans issue but it invariably is

depends on partners, surely?

Contraception is a feminist issue.

Sadly, until there's more honest men, and more effective long term male contraception, I tend to agree. A bit.

Extrospektiv

Amberleaf- as a pro-life/pro-family person I think "anti abortion is anti woman" is a disgusting statement because it lumps people who believe that unborn children should be allowed to live in with bigoted woman haters. (I don't want the abortion debate to start, I can understand you being pro-choice but please don't call people "misogynist" for restricting abortion. That is false and insulting

Firstly I didnt make the statement 'anti abortion is anti woman

Accidently posted too soon.

Cont....

They are your words not mine.

I said to restrict access to contraception/abortion is misogynistic and I stand by that. how much of an immediate impact would the lack of access to those things have on men?

IMO to be anti abortion you have little or no understanding of the women in that positions plight.

To think that an unborn childs right to life over rides the rights of its mother is misogynistic.

I'd have thought also contraception failures?

no contraceptive is 100 %

Extrospektiv; If free contraception was removed from the NHS there would be a lot more unwanted pregnancies which would place even more of a financial burden on resources. Not to mention an increase in the number of women seeking abortions.

I apply personal responsibilty to men as well as women. I can't see anything in the thread that has suggested anyone else would consider otherwise.