....to challenge people with bad manners?

[thefifthheffalump]

Not really bad stuff for the most part. Things like people not taking their rubbish in a food court and putting it in the bin, but leaving the crap all over the table so nobody can use it without clearing it themselves. I did this today to a couple of 20ish girls (asked them as they left the next table if they thought it was polite to leave their rubbish behind for someone else to deal with - they didn't say anything but looked a bit shamefaced, turned back and took it to the bin, so they obviously recognised it as the right hing to do, they were just being lazy and inconsiderate). My DH was slightly shocked and commented that lately I seem to have less tolerance for this type of thoughtlessness (I'd had a go a couple of days ago at an absolute twunt thoughtless person who was driving dangerously fast through a cramped car park and I am also prone to speak up to people allowing their kids to be absolute little shits in public).

I don't know if this is age - having hit the big 50 I'm less worried about what other people think of me if I speak up - or if I'm actually getting a bit menopausal or something! I think I'm just feeling less patient with the culture of entitlement and lack of consideration that makes life that bit less pleasant for everyone else, but I'm worried I'm descending into 'when I were a lass...the world was a better place' territory.

Do other people feel like me, or am I really becoming a bit unreasonable? I hasten to add that I'm not violently confrontational or anything, my challenges are always polite!

I'm not sure I'd automatically take the view though that if a parent is ignoring misbehaviour then I mustn't say anything just in case

This is why parents of children with disabilities become isolated, you get sick of the daily battles and trips out being ruined by other people.

It also destroys the confidence in the child.

But you carry on, because you obviously think that you voicing an opinion is your right.

Mine is the people who stop dead in the middle of the footpath with no warning - especially on a busy high street!

Makes me want to deliberately accidentally ram them with my buggy.

Or say very loudly to my DS about how rude some people are!

Whilst you may apologise immediately for mistaking autistic behaviour for bad behaviour, the damage to the parent's morale is already done. Every comment, every glare just chips away at your esteem.

Best say nothing IMO.

Also many people who really are crap at discipline don't really care and won't modify their behaviour at all but just give you a mouthful of abuse and think you are just a busybody and nag, so it won't achieve anything. There is a pervasive culture of 'how dare you tell my child off' and you will be seen as the bad guy.

And if the child has ASD you will ruin someone's day, so not really much to be gained is there

I think the irony is that displaying such intolerance is bad mannered.

You see people who are intolerant out and about and whilst they do have moments of pleasure possibly caused by smugness, they don't seem that happy, or enjoy themselves, much, tbh.

Birdsgottafly, yes I do challenge men as well (like the barmy car park driver, who was a big husky guy, hence my DH's alarm!) I've never challenged anyone over a lift, but here (I live in Australia) it's not uncommon to reach the ground floor and when you go to step out, be crushed in the rush of people trying to get in before you can exit!

Reading some of the other threads (I'm quite new here, so am looking back over earlier ones) I like the line several posters have offered for family issues - 'did you mean that to be/sound rude?' - which gives people an opportunity to say sorry if they just didn't realise and me an opening to acknowledge and accept their response politely.

No, I don't apologise. The people at the hospital caused her meltdown the other day. It was completely their fault that she was rocking, crying and making noises under the chairs, why the fuck should I apologise.
Generally speaking, I'm happy to explain, but in my experience, it's usually people that want to have a go or make a snippy comment, and they don't want to listen, they automatically think they're right.
My children know the rules and will get into trouble for breaking the rules, however, when and how I do that is not the business of anyone but me, trust me, it can't be done until it's discussed, taken apart piece by piece and word by word. She didn't get into trouble at the hospital, they broke the rules.

If you asked my DD (or my mum) 'did she mean to sound rude', my reply would be 'no, anything else to say?

But then she's 14, my eldest is 26 (ADHD) so i've been hardened up.

Surely you taking so much notice of others actually spoils your day?

I just ignore, unless directed towards one of mine.

OK, so I need to be more careful where parents of apparently badly behaved children are concerned. Thank you for your feedback, I realise now how much it could matter to you and feel unfair and oppressive if you have a child with ASD.

I don't get pleasure out of being smug or intolerant, Birds, I've never been a naturally confrontational or intolerant person, which is why I'm a bit surprised at my recent reactions. I honestly don't look for it, it tends to catch me by surprise!

I suppose it could beg a wider question (apart from my probably hormonal personality change!) which is if any one of us wishes the world were a slightly more considerate place, is it up to us to speak up when we see people being really thoughtless? I'm not talking about elderly people being a bit slower reacting or whatever, but stuff like the (not) table clearing I mentioned in my original post, or the careless littering so many posters have mentioned. To be clear, I don't spend my life seeking opportunities to do this, it just seems to be weighing on me more lately for some reason.

I agree, but I actually notice older people tend to have the worst manners like a belligerence.

like walking into the pram, pushing past you because being under 40 means you deserve absolute contempt.
Somebody walked into my bump!! tho other day.

but yeah I will proudly go 'your welcome' 'excuse yourself'

By the way, thank you for all your responses, this is my first attempt at a mumsnet thread (I've only previously made a couple of light responses on other people's) and I kind of expected nobody to take much notice of it! Please excuse any etiquette or acronym stumbles, not yet into using the mumsnet vernacular.

YABU

I don't litter. I have very good manners. But if someone decided to try and pull me up on something that would make me very mad.

Be careful. If you do that in the wrong place...

YANBU at all. I hate bad manners and will often pull people up (although it does tend to be adults rather than children). I'm quite short (4'11) and people seem to think this gives them the right to treat me like I'm invisible. One man on a train platform actually stood on me as he clearly desperately needed to talk to his friend. The fact the platform was clear was irrelevant. I tapped him on the shoulder and asked if he had realised there was actually a person here.

I try to be really tolerant of children, more so since joining up here and reading the experiences of mums of kids with ASD or even just mums having a really bad day with a tantrum-y toddler but surely there can be no excuse for a kid battering people's bags and the parent not saying anything. A "sorry" makes all the difference in the world.

Isn't it bad manners to comment on other people's manners?

"Dawndonna and bigsnugglebunny, I hear you and fully accept it must be hard. But if your young child is ASD and is creating difficulties for others, I'm sure you make some attempt to mitigate that, or even apologise? This mother just looked on with no apparent concern."

Absolutely - I have little cards with autism info written on them, and the lads have t-shirts which clearly state they have asd. (Though sometimes if those are in the wash, we have to make do!) I think it's about give and take, and I don't get all angry if someone is confrontational about the lads - I offer the little card, an apology and hopefully a nice dialogue with someone who maybe didn't know much about autism before. Doesn't always work like that - but I'm an optimist!

"Just thought about what has been said about children with ASD - and on reflection I'd be very prepared, if I said anything to a parent in this situation, for them to explain the circumstances to me and I would immediately acknowledge, apologise and accept revised expectations."

If only there were more people like you in the world!

However, ASD is no excuse for bad manners, and even misbehaving children with ASD need to be told off! Just because little Billy has ADHD doesn't mean he can go around kicking grannies in the shin! unless it's a particularly mean old granny with a stick

I looked through this carefully because last time there was a thread about food courts there were loads of posters saying they left rubbish around to preserve the jobs of the cleaning staff. I'm still not sure if they were joking. I don't think so.

It annoys me but not usually enough to say anything.

But like birdsgottafly I won't put up with anyone being rude to my mum or another old person. Or a child - but generally children have their own mums to stand up for them

My mum is slower and frailer than the average person and could get hurt by some hulking person barging into her. Mostly people don't mean to be horrible. They just don't think. Don't know why, though. I'll always pull them up.

And yes, she does stop dead in the street to tell me things. Sorry about that. She's 89. Just go round her like you do with countless younger people who text while walking.

Agree bigsnuggle. I will do a quick apology for an accident - hand flapping knocking someone etc. But if it's meltdown due to being in town and too much input, I need to get them out of there asap.

Mine do know the rules, may not always be able to apply them, though!

I suppose the definition of "bad manners" means different things to different people.

If I was one of those people whose bags were kicked by the 5 year old, I wouldn't necessarily think the child was being "bad mannered", but the mother's failure to stop him doing it or to apologise to those whose bags he had kicked, I would consider very bad mannered.

Likewise with thoughtless behaviour - I most certainly wouldn't tut at an elderly woman struggling to get off an escalator, but when a clearly able bodied couple or family group stop to have a discussion at the top of an escalator or chat to someone they've seen, thus blocking everyone else getting off, then that is quite obviously "thoughtless' behaviour.

It's all relative.

Bigsnugglebunny - you sound absolutely lovely and if there were more people like you in the world there would be fewer threads like this.

I've read that 'did you mean to sound so rude?' line on here loads of times.

It's a tricky one.

If I'd inadvertently caused offence I would apologise. But if my rudeness had been provoked by their behaviour I would answer: 'yes, I did'.

And then there are those sensitive people who confuse directness for rudeness all the time.

As someone who needs to be more understanding, I like the idea of the cards and T shirts about autism, bigsnuggle.

I'd never pull up a small child directly. However, I've protested to groups of mid/late teens forming a barging phalanx through the mall, knocking people around like bowling pins!

Funny, I've just realised that most of my irritations arise in shopping centres/malls and their immediate surrounds - perhaps the secret is to keep out of them, or maybe I need a more interesting life that involves different activities!

I agree that food court manners in general are appalling and I understand your frustration, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.

Littering/swearing/barging/obnoxious driving - these are everyday things, but confronting it must surely be a stress creator?

I try to notice how many people are nice because a lot of them are and it does make the day better. Like the check out staff who always offer a bright hello and wish you a good day, like the drivers who do give way, the shoppers who smile at your children and the colleagues who laugh at your crap jokes and bring you chocolate.

I was at a checkout the other day and the lady working there asked me if I would like cash out. I said no.

She muttered "no, Thankyou".

I said "sorry?"

And she gave a little laugh and said "oh I'm just being a mum, I said no Thankyou"

I was buying ingredients to cook a friend dinner as she'd just lost her baby, I had two kids with me, which I never do as I find it stressful taking them to the shops. My mind was on other things basically. I would have said Thankyou at the end of the shop but I really resented being pulled up on my manners. I think she was ruder than me in that situation.

I occassionally put rude cunts up, but I have had some scary outcomes:

A nice dozy little lad in the park had been playing with my sons and was holding the park gate open for some adults when an older woman bounced up shouting "shut the gate, shut the gate". It took a moment to dawn on us that her toddler grandson was running towards it and I blocked the little one. All was fine, but the woman turned to the other lad (about 7) and said "stupid boy, I was telling you to shut the gate". Before I could think, it popped out of my mouth that it wasn't nice to shout at unaccompanied little children (his mum and dad were in the park some way away, out of hearing) and that there was no need for it.

She carried on and then her two daughters came bouncing up the hill to back her up. I nearly shit myself, but did stand my ground that Gran needed to behave herself towards little kids....I think I avoided a kicking by asking "are you going to do this in front of the kids?". Shiiiit.

But yes, if it wasn't for fear of violence, I would do/say stuff more often.

By the way, did anyone find out how that poor woman was? the one that went to the cinema and had a psyco Dad shouting at her as her son alledgedly push his?