To think David Cameron has got it completely and utterly wrong re sport in schools,a competitive ethos should come after raising levels and a love of sport?itness

[Prarieflower]

Thats it really.Fat lot of good creating a more competitive ethos will do if the maj of teenagers are unfit and loath PE. Competition actually puts many children off sport full stop.

I went to secondary school in the 80s when non sporty types were ridiculed and made to feel like failures during PE lessons and Sports Day. Competition ruled over all else,nobody did sport just for enjoyment or just to maintain fitness.As a result I and many others did all we could to avoid PE lessons and thought we hated all sport.

For years I did nothing and then I discovered I enjoyed hiking,cycling and swimming-just for me.Who knows, if any had been provided and encouraged just for fitness I may well have gone on to take part in competitive events.Having better fitness levels for a start would have made that more likely.

I think schools should be encouraged to help pupils to pick sports they enjoy,they should be expected to take part in something of their choice more frequently. There should be a wide range linked to off school sites and red tape should be cut. There should be better facilities and the selling off of school fields stopped. There should be access to tasters in the specialised stuff like the dreaded javelin and shot put(sp?) which I hated. Sports Day which only celebrates athletics should be only for those that are interested and want to take part.Those that want to go the gym or have a swim should be able to do just that.Other sports should be celebrated not just athletics.

My kids are far more positive re PE than I ever was so I think schools of today are doing something right,it just needs to be extended further.

David Cameron simply doesn't have a clue re state school provision and it's needs.

Not very knowledgeable re sport so I'll await my flaming.I'm just observing and speaking as a previous sport avoider and now as a mum.

I hated games at school with the exception of a couple of terms where one of the PE teachers suddenly noticed I was keen to do it as long as I wasn't being humiliated.

Upthread someone said there are French / English / Maths teachers who humiliate their less able pupils as well. I'm sure there are, but it's endemic among PE teachers. I've never known another discipline where it's considered only OK to concentrate on your more able pupils, and to treat the rest with contempt and give them the minimum of your time.

Actually, people like me who weren't so sporty would have enjoyed competitive sport more if we were allowed to compete with people who were roughly on our level. No-one's going to enjoy playing competitively when your abject loss is assured, each and every time - or you're going to be groaned at by your peers for being the weak link in a team. It just makes you feel rubbish.

LongtallJosie: "Upthread someone said there are French / English / Maths teachers who humiliate their less able pupils as well. I'm sure there are, but it's endemic among PE teachers. I've never known another discipline where it's considered only OK to concentrate on your more able pupils, and to treat the rest with contempt and give them the minimum of your time."

It's a long time since I was in school, but that was my experience as well. The PE teachers had no interest in the less able kids.

I think the key difference between PE and things like French, maths etc is that in the academic subjects you're competing individually: your failure is all your own. In PE, your failure affects the whole team so you have added humiliation. It's not that I'm against team sports - I think they're a good thing - but it is torture being the crap kid in a team of good people. I think there's something to be said for offering alternatives (e.g. yoga or dance or swimming) for the less able kids, or just creating teams by ability. Playing hockey can still be fun if you're in a team of people playing at your own (not very good) level.

drcocnut many many schools have in built comps across the board.

DC have taken part in verse speaking competitions (individual and group), handwriting competitions, science comeptitions etc etc Every year there are comps to see which house gets the most house points.

These competitions are often rolled out nationally for all schools.

OP, going back to your original posts, I would have to disagree with your assumptions that schools put fostering a love of reading over sport. In my experience, they most definitely do not.

I just think DC has got it back to front.If you put more into the building blocks ie got more kids fit and enjoying sport you'll get more kids/adults later at competition level thus more competing for the top team places.The standard can't not go up.

If you put zero cash in,provide the same crappy facilities for the maj,concentrate on the minority and increase competition with none of the above you'll simply achieve nothing.The crap and uninterested will stay crap,uninterested-and unfit.The elite will stay the same level and have fewer to compete against.He needs to bring back the 2 hours minimum PE they axed at the very least.

Interesting re the swimming and US success.I only did a few lessons paid for by my parents in primary.Never went near a pool for educational purposes during secondary as there was no pool.I bet in the US school kids have far better swimming facilities.DC will simply have to stump up cash.

Kind of think DC only has his Eton experience to go on re sport in schools to be frank,no idea of the real world.

I also think they'll have to look at transportation costs. Hiring coaches for schools often cost more than the destination itself.Not all schools have mini buses.If the gov want to start transporting more kids to facilities that few state schools have they will need to find a way to cut transportation costs-again it will cost cash.

Tis all very well if your kids go to Eton,Millfield etc and you have everything on site but state schools often don't have this luxury.

At our school parents often transport kids off site as many of us have cars.Not all families do and many are down to 1 car being used for work purposes.

Most private schools don't have the facilities of Eton! Quite a lot of them are struggling to cope financially. The few that have great facilities and aren't struggling, can't cope with all the secondary schools in the area descending on them. That is a totally unrealistic idea.

I also don't get why you want to increase the the amount of PE children do yet you want them to spend at least a quarter of it travelling elsewhere (assuming that if they have 2 hours and warrant a minibus to go somewhere it has to be at least 15 minutes wasted each way). Wouldn't they be better staying at school?

Swimming in the US if a decidedly middle class and white sport. You would be rather appalled to see the differance in the figures of drowning between the black and white communities where around 75% of adult blacks have never been given the opportunity of swimming lessons as public facilities are few and far between, normally at a larger YMCA or else in the more affluent public school areas which are predominately white.

Olympic success has knob-all to do with PE teachers and their largely content-free lessons. Jess Ennis did not get where she was by listening to Miss Blah wittering on about sports bras and ineffectually demonstrating some outdated technique for hitting a hockey ball. She learned her skills at an athletics club, with a proper knowledgeable coach.

We need more community sports facilities open to children. If the government were serious, they'd look into funding a network of these, including some at least part-time professionals to staff them.

The sports themselves do that with regional developments coaches etc. already. But these regional staff can't visit the hundreds of schools in an area in the time. Teachers need to play their part.

Bertha, you said: 'If you find you are good at a sport and want to do more you can always join an after school club or wait until that sport comes round again which it will.'

Yes, but you can use that argument for everything to do with school teaching. If you want your child to try a different sport every 4 weeks, you can always sign them up for a range of after school clubs.

I think it is a matter of deciding what we are doing PE for, and what gets included in PE lessons at school. It isn't about what is best for your son; it is about PE having to serve a number of different purposes which benefit a range of children, as other school subjects have to do. Part of that is training children to compete against other schools in specific sports, part of it is about exercise, part about developing physical skills and so on. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

Running is a competitive sport, and part of the technique of running (certainly long distance running) is awareness of what your competitors are doing - when they are going to sprint, pacing yourself against them over various sections. Gymnastics isn't a solitary activity at secondary school. Various routines are done as a group. So, no, it isn't appropriate to stick the best runners and gymnasts in the bottom PE set on the basis of their ability in other sports! (And what about relay?!)

As for hitting a ball between two people being boring if it isn't done by the rules of tennis, I was in a country park yesterday and it was full of families hitting balls to each other, just for the fun of it! Sport can be competitive in some situations and just fun and exercise in others.

The best way to get most people to hate something is to force them to learn it at school, be it the 800m or Thomas Hardy.

I was good at the long jump and the high jump at school circa 90's. Long limbs and scrawny. I was very excited to be representing my house at sports day (usually a full blown nerd getting to excel at sports!). PE teacher then decided it would be easier to manage with fewer students so the hockey team for each house did ALL the sport events. I still loathe you for that Mrs Neilly!

DS's last sports day consisted of running, egg and spoon, hoops and sacks. DS's new school has a football team, a hockey team, and a brand new athletics centre on it's doorstep (shared use with other schools) thanks to the Olympics! Apparently they do do competition, but they have the facilities to support it.

David Cameron can go on about competition but unless you have some decent sports equipment and space to manage so many children safely you're in for a tough time.

Dud you see Jessica Ennis being asked about this on the news yesterday? She said enjoyment must come first not competitiveness.

Was this before or after she sold out to join the glamour pages of the lads mags?

No idea. I haven't read a paper in weeks and never buy magazines and don't keep up with celeb gossip online. It was on the 10 o'clock news. Can't see how it relevant to the issue of competitiveness in school sports though. Thought a gold medalist was interesting.

Gold medslist's view was interesting.

So Novak she's not qualified to comment now she's done a mag shoot?