to think teaching a child they are entitled to defend themselves isn't horrendous?

[lastnerve]

I know things have changed since we were children.
But surely if adults have the legal right to defend themselves shouldn't children??.

And I'm talking about defense here not condoning violence

I know I'm awaiting a flaming. hides

Wow. Those of you who just say do nothing, tell teachers, or shout No have evidently been to schools much nicer than mine when I was a kid.

I was being hit/kicked/punched to the point where I had to go to casualty ... twice. At one point I needed a fortnight off school. Telling teachers did no good, teachers saw what was going on (they were well aware). I did not provoke (just wanted to be left alone), but as I never hit back I was seen as an easy target. I wish now I'd had the courage to disobey my parents and hit back - I honestly think now if I'd done that to the ringleaders it might have stopped (although I was v.outnumbered). Not suggesting for a minute that we turn our kids into thugs, but that we do allow them to defend themselves if they are being assaulted (sweets being nicked, not justification IMO).

Oh, and this wasn't some inner-city secondary. It was a 'nice' primary in a small town. The subsequent bullying was hell - enduring all that for 13 years caused me endless problems with trust/friendships when I left school (college was much better).

I could have asked for my son to go to another school but you then wonder if taking him away from his friends that he does have and putting them in a strange environment (in our case, a bigger school) when they are already feeling vulnerable is a good thing or not. We felt that my son was making himself a target by his behaviour of skulking around avoiding people and potential bullies would see that as a weakness and target him afresh?? anyway in retrospect maybe I should have moved him but it didn't seem that clear cut at the time. The physical bullying was quite short lived and relatively minor in comparrison to some here, but the phsychological stuff lasted longer and in my view had more serious effect on my son. His last year and a half at primary, he had a brilliant (male) teacher who he felt supported and protected by. He came down like a ton of bricks on incidents from the boys in the class and that seemed to stop that, however then a lot of it was the girls being snidey and then it was outside of school intimidation etc

To quote: ...I don't know anyone whos parents ever told them to hit back, shout loudly or push them away yes but never hit back. We knew that was probably the attitude amongst some of the rougher families but not any of the middle class families I knew. I'm truly shocked that this is the attitude on mumsnet.....

Your 'middle class families' would be in for a real shock if their offspring ever found themselves in any leading public school.

Agree strongly with posters above that passive aggressive behavior, stemming, often from families where conflict was disallowed, can be every bit as damaging as a good clean punch. Often more so.

Not that bullying is a major problem in public schools, but the ideology that 'don't hit first but hit back hardest' is still very much ingrained to many a old family and their values. Gets results too.

Am utterly appalled by couthymow's story, but don't know what to suggest if there are no other schools nearby. I wouldn't want to send my child into a potentially violent situation everyday, just as I wouldn't want to do it myself.

On the broader point, my view is you should not teach children to hit back - but I think there are always exceptions. In this case my exception would be if the school is persistently failing to deal with the problem and you are 100% sure your child can hit back harder than they are being hit. But even then I'd worry that the other kid would bring his friends along next time.

hardboiledpossum. Did you really think all bullies came from the "rougher" families on council estates? Is it possible to that far up your own arse?

.......and, until you have been in the situation yourself either as a child or as a parent with a bullied child, you really don't know how that changes your attitude. i would still quite happily personally punch some of these kids myself given the opprtunity (to do it and get away with it) so how my son manages to refrain i have no idea!!

When you have a 10 year old who wants to sleep in bed with his mum and dad then you understand how wicked kids can be. On the other hand my son never ever asked not to go school and in fact had perfect attendance for 5 years in a row - not that the school gave any kind of recognition for that - and before anyone reacts, I know kids can't help getting ill from time to time, we are lucky that he is so healthy, but I mean to go through sustained bullying and still have perfect attendance is something worthy of some sort of recognition. And I had to stand on the last day assembly and see some of these little shits getting awards for football etc when the kids they picked on got nothing really got my back up.

I wasn't comfortable with "hit back harder" once I had my DDs, ainly ecause I was always the one who got in trouble because teachers never saw the kid who hit me before I defended myself. So, I tought mine to only ht back as a last resort if after every other available option has failed the offender doesn't sop.

mainly because I'm not firing on all cylinders today, sorry!

Rollmops I know lots of people who went to 'leading public schools', I don't really get your point.

Floggingmolly I never mentioned council estates, I have friends who grew up on council estates who had lovely families. As I said at my primary school I don't ever remember anyone getting hit. There were some 'rougher' families who lived around us and by that I don't mean poor or whatever you think, just that they used to fight with each other. I honestly don't know anyone who as a child was ever hit by another or ever witnessed it in school.

Believe me, if I could move them, I would. I won't be on this thread much tonight, been an emotional day with DD's friend's funeral, and We have to get up at 4.15 tomorrow to make DD's flight to her dad's in Scotland.

Where I grew up you kept your head down.

If you teach kids to hit back at a young age, how do you teach teenagers that hitting back, verbally or physically could get them stabbed. Bullying is different, but keeping your temper and not responding to everything that happens to you is an important life skill, best learnt young.