to think teaching a child they are entitled to defend themselves isn't horrendous?

[lastnerve]

I know things have changed since we were children.
But surely if adults have the legal right to defend themselves shouldn't children??.

And I'm talking about defense here not condoning violence

I know I'm awaiting a flaming. hides

I was bullied very badly at school and moved schools after having 6 months off because of it, My children will be taught to defend them self's. In fact my eldest will be starting a defense club soon called "Fight Club" its to encourage children to want to go.

attheendoftheday I don't think anyone here is advocating that we should teach toddlers to hit others - mostly toddlers are under supervision and it is usually clear who has done what and it can be dealt with appropriately. Once kids get older and the supervision is less and they get sneakier that's when the problems begin and when rational responses don't work, then I think you get to a point where hitting back is the only solution. Kids are also not stupid, your average 12 year old knows perfectly well not to break a 3 year olds nose in retaliation. My almost 11 year old just told of a neighbours child for hitting his own cat with his shoe becasue the cat scratched him. They still know right from wrong.

Even non-violent self defence techniques haven't worked in my DS1's case, he still has ended up being the one in the wrong. And my DS2 would neither hit back, or be able to defend himself, due to his SN's. So he IS an 'easy target'.

I have had no choice but to complain to my school's Governors, so serious are the lack of safeguarding issues, and their culture of victim blaming, not recording incidents of bullying, not getting appropriate medical treatment for seriously injured DC's, lying on RIDDOR forms, attitude of the teaching staff and the SMT at the school.

And the combination of issues are so severe at this school that if the complaints are not effectively dealt with by the Governors, I WILL now be sending my complaint higher - to the LEA and the DfE (has to be both due to the process of Academy conversion not being finished.)

I will also, if the reaction to my complaint to the Governors be unsatisfactory, be complaining to Ofsted too. The Safeguarding issues I feel will be taken more seriously be Ofsted, and would IMO be the only thing that would make the HT change the working practices of the school, if their Ofsted 'Outstanding' rating was threatened.

Believe me, I am not going down this route lightly, it has taken 8 years and the systematical bullying of all 3 of my school age DC's, leaving physical and emotional scars on all 3, to get to this point.

But given the nature of the most recent incident, and the school's response, I am left with no choice but to continue this to the full extent, as my only remaining option is HE. Which I may yet have to end up doing, to safeguard my DC's from being used as a punchbag for others with little to nothing being done about it.

Couthy, have you got the police involved? I know people who have had assauly charges against them for behavior in school.

I tell DS to hit back when he has been hit, but tell him off if he was the first to hit.

In my experience kids who don't hit back and try to do the right thing by telling teachers, usually end up being the victims of bullying. Very sad but true.

yanbu.
It's impractical for adults to sort out every dispute between kids, especially when at least one party has resorted to violence, and the other may well have resorted to quite nasty verbal goading or other ugly devious tricks, to try to get the violence started.

Crude as it is, a few sharp blows between parties is often a far more stable long term solution to their disagreements than anything adults can try to achieve.

For those that haven't read my thread, my 8yo with muscle problems and ASD had his pants and trousers pulled down on the school field by the same DC that has been bullying him since Reception (he has just finished Y3), then that boy and two others dragged my DS2 halfway across the school field and through the long jump pit, exposing him again, in front of up to 420 other pupils. The incident left him with scrapes on his back that needed cleaning and treating by the school, and they had to change his entire school uniform.

My 8yo told me that he felt 'cold inside because he was full of shame that everyone saw my privates when I didn't want them to'.

The teacher's response was dismissive, arrogant, denying it was bullying, and biased against my DS2 because I have made previous complaints about serious incidents at school with all my DC's, and therefore am not 'supportive' of the school like the bully's parents are.

How would YOU feel if your DC had to go to school knowing that incidents like this would happen to him, leaving him feeling like that, when your DC also knows that the school will only punish the perpetrator with losing one lunchtime play outside, and being forced to apologise to the victim?

I'll bet after 8 years of it YOU would be telling your DC "Don't hit first, but hit hardest". Even if you KNOW they won't follow that advice.

And as for standing there passively, allowing themselves to be hit (repeatedly in DS2's case, he CAN'T run to get help, he has two different muscle problems AND severe asthma, meaning he is unable to get away from the bully at ALL), and then telling a teacher, WHY IN THE NAME OF GOD should my DC have to be hit AT ALL?!

DS2's bully is too young, and the police refuse to get involved. However, the school have been warned, very clearly, that if ANYTHING happens to DS1 now that all DC's in his class are over 10yo, that the police WILL be called, and I WILL bring charged against that bully.

Had to wait till the end of Y5 for that though, as DS1's bully is young for that year, and didn't turn 10yo until the end of July.

I DO mean it though, police involvement WILL be sought in the event if DS1 getting injured again...

That's awful Couthy. How can the police refuse to get involved when there has been a clear assault (with sexual overtones) here? okay, they may not be able to charge but they can go round and see the families involved (frankly I think that social services should be involved too, cause that is not normal behaviour) . We did that when my son got whacked on the back with a large stick when trying to get away from some boys who decided to try to pull him off his bike for daring to smile when one of a group of boys put his foot in a water ditch at the park. Police went round to each of the houses and gave the boys a warning. Never had a problem with them since.

Because the age of criminal responsibility is 10. So basically any child below that cannot be guilty of any crime basically.

I know, MrNiceGuy. It's cheering slightly to see that even someone who I am generally arguing with shares the same views as me on how badly bullying is dealt with in schools.

I wish the police WOULD go round and give a warning.

And yes, this attack DID have sexual overtones, and I feel that had this boy done the same thing to a girl, it would have been treated FAR more seriously. Yet because my sensitive DS2 is a boy, it has been brushed under the carpet. Or at least the school have TRIED to brush it under the carpet. I'm not letting them though...

And I hope your DD's problems with bullying have ended now, MrNiceGuy. It is awful to see the emotional distress it puts your child through, as a parent.

To be frank I doubt the police will have much impact. In my experience if the parents are decent people then the bully will be dealt with swiftly at home. I know if I was told my DD was bullying, she'd be dealt with.

It's those with troubled families who are often the hardest to deal with. The parents don't care and schools have limited powers. The whole system is now designed to keep kids in school and not to exclude anyone. So permanent exclusions now are not permanent. The girl who is/was bullying my daughter was kicked out. She was supposed to be homeschooled but her parents didn't. So the LEA in their infinite wisdom put her back in the same school. So what has that taught the kids?

Well for that one child it's taught her that she can do what she wants and there's no repercussions other than a few weeks off school. For all the other kids, it teaches them, there's no point in complaining as nothing really happens except you piss the bully off even more for being a grass.

Thanks Couthy. We'll see next term.

With girls it's harder than for boys. Bullying from other girls is often quite psychological unlike boys who will often just have a fight about it then it's done.

So it's the rumour spreading, facebook bullying, bitchy comments, the walking past and accidentally bumping them. I can see why it's harder for a teacher to deal with.

What I've told my daughter is that she needs to be whiter than white. Because if she does choose to defend herself then she'll get into trouble. I'll go into school to fight her corner and the last thing I need at that point is to be undermined by finding out she's been bitchy back. Not that I think she would but it's still worth pointing out.

Couthy that is awful, have you considered moving schools. My dd 5 has ASD and that type of thing worries me. However she is due to start a fantastic autistic school in september. Though in her devious ms school what you described would never happen as bullying would be taken very seriously. All the more to hit back if you are a child and being assaulted. Police don't take it seriously if below a certain age

my son's bullies "nice" families did nothing. In the end he had the hard time from most of the girls as well as the boys - each trying to impress the other I think.

I agree that the limited powers a school has to permanently remove a child that us bullying has the effect of teaching that child that they can hurt people with impunity, and have no fear of major repercussions. Not exactly a great message for life.

It also teaches the victim not to speak out, as the repercussions for them are greater.

And I wouldn't be so dismissive of how bitchy boys can be, using FB too, though my DS1 doesn't have an account, a lit if the comments from his peers come up on my 14yo DD's page, as 3 of her friends also have siblings in DS1's year.

Don't underestimate how bitchy boys can be, and how good? (bad?) they can also be with psychological bullying too.

This is what I get from the school a lot, that girls are worse and feel it more, and boys should just let it go. It really ISN'T the case that boys bully differently to girls.

I remember when I was about 7 another boy weed on me for kicks it was humiliating. Mabey because I was a bit odd and they knew I would not speak up

What I should have done is grab his willy mid pee and tied it in a knot

Well my son joins secondary school in September and he will be one of the youngest and smallest in the year.

I'm very concerned about the possibility of being bullied. He's the obvious target for anyone who thinks he can up his street cred a bit. Especially if they are older and a lot bigger.

Sometimes I think that the little ones are actually in a bit less danger - it hardly does your street cred that much good if you can only bully a little kid - sometimes they (and this is going to sound really bad) treat them a bit like pets, so i'd advise your son to smile and be friendly to everyone and he will hopefully fly underneath the radar. I really hope it goes well.

I don't think it is acceptable. It causes all sorts of problems.

My dd has a bully (T) in her class. One of the girls hasn't reported anything T has done to her, but decided to trip T over & T hit her face pretty hard. The girl who did this has had enough. BUT, T reported it & the girl who tripped her was excluded from the classroom & yards for one week. She had to do all her work outside the principal's office. They didn't believe that it was provoked. So the bully became the victim.

Which is why I don't teach my girls to hit back. You lose the battle as soon as you start fighting like for like.

I was bullied too, so I know how it feels. Trouble is, I think, is that if you teach your child to fight back at the slightest provocation, how do you know that you aren't creating the next school bully?

What are all the parents doing of those children being bullied for 2/3/4/5 years? Surely you don't send them to school day after day to endure that!?

Different it depends on the situation and what the school are doing about it, if they are doing nothing and the victim s getting kicked punched on a daily basis then the have every right to bit back to get the bullies off them and for them to go away

CouthyMow Believe me, I am not going down this route lightly, it has taken 8 years and the systematical bullying of all 3 of my school age DC's, leaving physical and emotional scars on all 3, to get to this point

I do sympathise, being bullied is horrendous. Your post is full of if this, if that! Stop with the ifs & DO IT! Watching your dc being hurt for EIGHT years is unacceptable. If it has meant hospital treatments, CAT scans etc WHY keep letting them get away with it? We all complain that the school fail in their duty of care, but when do we take OUR duty of care seriously!

There is absolutely NO WAY either of mine would endure eight years of bullying!