to think teaching a child they are entitled to defend themselves isn't horrendous?

[lastnerve]

I know things have changed since we were children.
But surely if adults have the legal right to defend themselves shouldn't children??.

And I'm talking about defense here not condoning violence

I know I'm awaiting a flaming. hides

My very-tall-for 10 DS1 refused to hit back. So we took him to self defence classes. Last time someone at school tried to hit him, he grabbed their fist as it was coming towards him, twisted, and the child that was trying to hit him ended up on the floor.

Who got into trouble? Well, it wan't the child that was trying to hit...

Another time, the same child tried to run into DS1 to 'barge' him over. DS1 saw him coming, and adjusted his stance so that he wouldn't be knocked over. The other child fell down on the floor. DS1 was still standing.

Who got told off? For just standing still? Yep, you guessed it. DS1.

I was told that self defence is 'inappropriate' for a school playground where DS1 has been bullied and hurt mercilessly since Reception 6 years ago, and that he should tell an adult WHEN he has been hurt. My answer was that if he is using self defence techniques that are accepted by the police as self defence, then I have no problem with that.

If people don't hit him, he has no reason to use those techniques.

Even at 4yo, when a child was hitting him, rather than hit back, DS1 grabbed the child and held him in a bear hug, as it was the only thing DS1 could think of to stop the child hitting him without actually hitting back.

The child bit him. And drew blood, through a school sweatshirt AND a t-shirt. Guess what the HT said? "well, your DS1 is very tall, it must have been very scary for the other boy to have been held so it wasn't really his fault that he bit..."

Yes, the other boy was so scared of my son that he was hitting him in the first place.

I have now given up and told my DS1 "Don't hit first, hit hardest."

Someone hit my DH with a chair when he was young. He broke their nose with one punch

Someone hit bil with a rounders bat, he hit them back

Both times DH and bil got in trouble. Mil had to haul ass to school and fight their corner (which the other kids both then admitted to)

Not sure what I think tbh

I have to admit that I find it utterly depressing that there is even a need for some of these children to have to defend themselves. Schools shouldn't be a place where children can be physically or emotionally hurt by other children and the fact that it is so widely accepted that children will be bullied and that the schools don't particularly care is part of the problem.

Teaching them to hit back doesn't always work out well. Dp told ds2 to just hit them back after weeks of being punched and kicked and the school doing nothing

Ds2 hit back and the other kid punched him to the floor and stamped on him

unless somebody (of any age) has some skills in boxing or martial arts then the normally peaceful 'victim' will always end up worse off if they get into a fight by hitting back when attacked by somebody (of any age) who is more physical and goes around hitting/fighting regularly.

i would not teach my kids to hit back. i would teach them to shout back 'don't hit me' or something that draws attention of all surrounding kids and adults without 'telling tales'.

I've never encouraged the DC to hit back - but to talk loudly and attract adult attention.

DS had a day where this other boy wound him up all day and taunted him 5 minuted before he has handed over to me at end of school - he's reception - he lashed out. DS was the one in trouble even though the staff were aware of the winding up - they told me and despite him telling a member of staff earlier that it was upsetting him.

Since this boy found he can wind DS up they have been a few other incidents all provoked - and DS the one in trouble when he lashed out.

It was particularly upsetting having the TA in front of the other parents and DC lecture me on this I should be doing at home to improve his otherwise excellent behavior - stuff like telling him when he done something wrong - which we obviously did already and always have done.

All my attempts to get him to alert staff - which he did do were undermine by the staff ignoring him or not being interested. He did stay out of this boys way but again staff undermined that by telling DS to play with this boy when the boy complained DS wouldn't play with him .

I had to settle for going higher up the school and getting them into different classes next year.

I honestly don't know what I should have been telling DS - and it wasn't like I wasn't trying to get the staff he had to help.

moomins i wrote my post before you posted yours but it is a good example of exactly what i'm saying. i have years of martial arts training and i know how unnatural to most people it is to hit hard enough or be viscious enough to do damage and also how easy it is to hurt your own fists etc.

We always told DS to walk away, find an adult etc. Which was fine for the first few years until he became known as the kid who is an easy punch bag that won't fight back, oh and he handle things, he has to go an tell a teacher.

I'm afraid after one too many incident with another child I did tell him to hit back. Initially he didn't as it's just not in his nature but eventually he did and the incidents stopped. I am now mad that I didn't tell him to hit back before as I now feel as though I allowed him to be hurt.

My teachers always said not to retaliate, that bought me about 5 years of bring spat on, pissed on, mud thrown at me, stuff stolen, my cat being targetted along with lots of other shitty stuff. Then my mum 'gave' me permission to hit back, I did, it stopped dead.

I'll be telling my kids to never hit first, but hit back hardest also.

Callisto - despite all my experiences, I have to say that I don't think that in the main it is the schools that are at fault. By the time they arrive in school children are already bullies and that can't be the school's fault. I do think however that a lot of the schools tools to deal with this behaviour have been eroded and that parents are too inclined to think that it couldn't be their child. This leads to some pussyfooting about the issues. It's also not only the problem of the "council house" kids. The ringleaders in my son's case were from "nice" homes with 2 parents who thought the sun shined etc - we had also socialised with them. I wanted to meet with the other parents in school in a proper meeting, not so I could have a dust up, but so I could tell them clearly the effect that their child's behaviour was having on my son. This is an established technique, but they wouldn't do it, I am sure they thought it would end up in a fight.

Amck5700 you might as well be writing about my son. From being tall for his age (which in many ways makes them more of a target for bullying because if you knock down the tall boy you're " well hard" ) to doing martial arts since 4 years old that he would never employ.

We brought him up never to hit. Turns out this was a huge mistake. After 6 years of bullying I can't wait for him to start High school ( a different one to the other kids in his class).

The one time he really lost his rag and gave a tormentor an almighty shove, the child fell back and hit his head on the floor and Ds was in trouble.

I don't know the answer maybe some children will never hit matter what but I feel now that we did him no favours teaching him never to hit.

I'm hoping with my DS it was just his particular teacher and associated, TA and being bit crap generally other parents seemed more aware their DC was no little angle.

Mind you DD1 teacher last year was slow of the mark and initially very dismissive of my DD considerable upset and some of the spite dished out to her - the class had been mixed up and she was already separated from her close friends. This year teacher soon put a stop to it.

The parent there had another child in other years class very unhappy and bullied - both at school and from what I and others saw her sibling at home - she was rightly outraged that her other DC was bullied but would never accept her DC bullied my DD1 and others despite teacher finally talking to her. Our DC were supposed to accept it .

Foof - I have to say that he is "bouncing" at the moment and looking forward to high school after the holidays. He said himself it was a fresh start. and has already made some friends at the transition days. We told him that this is his opportunity to be whoever he wants to be without people looking down their noses and sniping at him for daring to step out of the box that they have put him in. His crime at primary? to be clever and like computers and books and not football!!! Anyway, the high school he is going to has an academic reputation rather than the sporting one that his catchment school has, a much better fit for him. He isn't usless at sports by any means and can swim really well (not quite competition standard in the city we live in but if we lived somewhere smaller he would be in a squad no problem) but when the bully in his case played basketball for the country under 11s and some of the other kids are talented footballers, he didn't stand a chance. It's like they live two lives, he loves scouts, has friends and will literally do anything - e.g. ropes courses, kayaking etc. but these kids don't get to know those things, as far as they are concerned he is a soft geek and nothing he could do would change that view.

I hope your son has a great time at his new high school where he can walk tall, smile and be amongst a group of new friends.

YANBU for a child to use whaever means possible to get thir attacker off them, even if it does mean giving the other kid a good walloping. Sometimes kids are bullied day in and day out physically and emotionally and just something snaps in the victim and they hit back. A lot of times you read and hear in the press of the complacency of schools and their reluctance to get involved. Fair enough if the child has enough and hits back, I expect that the bullies won't be exe ting that and it could be the one thing that causes it to stop

There was a very sad treads on hear posted by a mum called elmo or elmo fire about her ds enduring bulling on such an extent that he had to be hospitalised. It was relentless and the school were rubbish. In those situations he had every right to hit back, you would as an adult and this would not be tolerated in the adult world, why do children have to put up with it

I've had to have this conversation with Dd recently, as another girl she is in childcare with has started being very mean and spiteful, she is 2 years older and significantly bigger than DD, and the final straw came when DD arrived home with a bruised and scraped eye socket/upper cheek.

I have now told DD that the next time this child pinches, scratches, pulls hair etc as she has been doing, then DD is to hit her as hard as she can, scream for an adult and she will not be punished for it. I've also told her carer this is what I've instructed DD to do.
The child has been told off numerous times for her behaviour, we have tried to keep them apart, monitor them more closely etc but this child insists on singling my DD out for horrid treatment, her mother washes over every spiteful act as 'over excitement' or 'a game that got out of hand' and I have had enough, she hasn't even started school yet and has been picked on by a nasty vicious brat. :(

How can we from the comfort of our keyboards and if we have never been bullied tell children to not fight back. What if the child is being attacked outside with nobody in sight shouting loud enough and calling an adult will not help one jot. Survival instinct kicks in and the child does what he/she can to get the bullies off or fr tem to leave them alone

Amck that sounds so positive for your son. I hope he has a great experience at high school. My DS is also academic, not hugely sporty (he does love football just isn't a natural) but his biggest crime is that he dances and acts. After quiting Karate he joined a theatre workshop. This led to his interest in dance. He also doesn't go along with the crowd and will speak up if he sees injustice. He may as well wear a target.

It just makes me wonder if all those years ago had we instilled the mantra "don't hit first, hit hardest" would he have been saved from a school life of torment. Therefore did we fail him in that respect?

I just asked DS (7) what he would do if someone hit him.

"tell the teacher or my mother"

I just told him about saying "no, don't hit me" loudly and firmly.

He looked at me like

Poor DS is the child who accepts normal childhood bosteriousness and grabbing but sadly is such a softarse that if he does it he'll accept other DC's making over proportioned fuss and apologise.

YANBU btw. If someone punched DS and he hit back in self defense I wouldn't be too bothered - fight or flight is a natural instinct.

couthy I am ed that your DS got into trouble for not allowing himself to be assaulted and that he should let himself be assualted and then report it.

Beggers belief.

I feel the same foof, but actually a lot of it is down to his nature. My younger boy (13 months younger) is academic, likes books and computers and not football (do you see a pattern emerging!!) but is a much louder person. Whilst No1 son has always been comfortable in his own skin, he has always been quiet and not overtly confident. No2 son I would say is less confident on the inside but looks more confident on the outside if that maks sense. He doesn't get any bother at school as he just tells them where to go and to leave him alone etc. and does his own thing - he has less friends than No 1 son (because he is a bit loud and annoying and refuses to compromise and do what other kids want) yet is less of a target for bullies - I wish I had the answer!!

Amky - I understand what you're saying, but the school is there to provide pastoral care for my child as well as teaching her the various subjects. I would say that any school that allows or ignores bullying is failing in their duty of care. Bullies may well be made before they even get to school by poor parenting or whatever, but that is no reason for these children to be bullies while in school.

I also think that the parents of bullied children should be much more vocal and proactive in getting the schools to stamp down on bullying behaviour - zero tolerance is the only way as low level unpleasantness will almost always escalate if allowed to continue. Personally, I would be asking my DD's school what the heck was going on if there was a single bullying incident. I certainly wouldn't put up with years of misery for her, because that is how school is.

Callisto, even if parents kick off sometimes nothing gets done. I resent the implication that parents of bullied children simply aren't vocal enough or are willing to put up with it.

i teach ds to tell anyone that hits him to say no do not hit me and to go and tell a teacher why would i encourage ds to be violent too when i am teaching him it is wrong

I would have absolutely no issue with my kids defending themselves if they were in a bullying situation. I really can't understand the posters virtuously asserting that they encourage their children to be the "bigger person" and not hit back - why would you set your child up as a victim like that?
Unassertive kids are a bully's dream.