to think teaching a child they are entitled to defend themselves isn't horrendous?

[lastnerve]

I know things have changed since we were children.
But surely if adults have the legal right to defend themselves shouldn't children??.

And I'm talking about defense here not condoning violence

I know I'm awaiting a flaming. hides

The thing is, the child who keeps cOmplaining to the teacher about being hit becomes the annoying child who keeps tell-taling. It happened to me. How many times are you going to go to a teacher (who is looking after 29 other children) and tell them you're being hit by someone in a space of 15 mins? you go more than 3 times and the teacher gets pissed off and disciplines the bully, but what about breaks and lunchtime? No one is there to defend you then.

Children should be taught to defend themselves as soon as they start school so that they don't become a target for bullies.

It IS ok to stand up for yourself but that doesn't always mean hitting.

When I was in P1 I was bullied incessantly by a boy in my class. I went home everyday with holes in my tights and grazed knees. My main worry was that my mum would be cross with me about the tights.

Anyway, it got so bad he got expelled and I had a "buddy" from P2 at break times due to being terrified of the playground.

I really do believe that if I had just hit him really hard once he would have stopped. But it didnt even occur to me that I should. I dont remember much of Primary school but that sticks in my mind.

I wont let DD feel so scared and helpless.

There are many ways to defend yourself that are more acceptable than hitting. As one poster has said, shouting No, telling an adult, generally making a fuss.

Standing and taking it is completely different to not defending yourself. Teaching children to hit back is not horrendous but it makes the message 'violence is wrong' confusing. Of course any adult would violently self defend if necessary - do you really expect your 4 year old to be in that position?

If a child called yours a gayboy or a spaz would it be ok for your child to call them a paki or a poof? Dont be racist/homophobic/offensive first but its ok if you do it later? This is basically the message you're giving - a bad thing is ok in self defence.

If an adult hits back when assaulted, they can also be charged with a violent offence - the 'right to defend yourself' is limited to reasonable force - blocking a punch or pushing an attacker away as they hit may be acceptable, but a pre-meditated return blow is considered in just the same way as the first strike.

But, as long as a child unlearns this particular lesson by the time they reach double-digits, then they won't get into trouble with the law.

I have, once, encouraged my DD to fight back when she was being bullied and repeatedly physically restrained by an older child - but only when all other options were exhausted - and as soon as possible I removed her from contact with the bully concerned.

I think this kind of thing could be a problem if the child can't actually defend themselves i.e. they don't have the strength or ability to defend themselves, so lashing out just causes the situation to escalate and any moral high ground is lost. They could end up much worse off by retaliating IMO. My DD hasn't got it in her to hit anyone, but she's not a push over either. She knows to shout loud and walk away, and to find the nearest grown up if she's ever in a situation like that. She's only 7 so not had any real problems so far. At some point I'm hoping she'll take up Tae Kwon Do or something like that, so she could defend herself if ever the need arose at some point in the future. I'd rather she had the training in how to defend herself without lashing out, giving her a better chance to walk away and not be deemed just as bad as the aggressor of the incident.

My oldest is 14 and my youngest 5. I have never suggested to them that hitting back was acceptable and afaik they never have. This has not made them punchbags. They made a suitable protest and moved away.

I think it's really sad that people are transferring their own bad experiences on to the shoulders of their babies. So you were bullied - ok that's horrible. That doesn't mean you need to teach your toddler to flatten any other child who takes a swing at them. What has your past to do with their tussle over a train set. We need to raise independant and assertive children NOT aggressive ones.

I think it's fine to use reasonable force to defend yourself and this is what I teach my dcs. I was bullied throughout secondary school and wish I'd used force to defend myself.

I was bullied and the only time I ever felt justified to hit back was when I was pinned to the floor being kicked by someone else, and I simply bit the girl holding me down until she released me and I could escape.

I think hitting back can turn it from bullying and harassment into a fight, and when that happens neither side is blameless, and you will have given your child advice that gets them into trouble.

I've always followed what was taught at school, tell a teacher/grown up, be loud and make yourself big and noticeable, push someone off you if needs be, but no hitting, only getting away to safety.

I was assaulted once, hit repeatedly by another woman, I knew it was pointless hitting back as she was bigger and stronger and I was completely cornered. I curled up and waited for it to stop, she went to prison. Had I hit back, I'd have been as much to blame for the "fight" and wouldn't have seen her get her punishment.

I just can't feel like telling my kids to hit anyone is the right thing to do, when I spend so much time teaching them it's wrong and they shouldn't do it.

wellthen, due to our experience, I would tell my child that if someone called him gayboy or spaz to punch the prepetrator as hard as he could right in the face - believe me it saves everyone problems further down the line...including bucket mouth.

You seem to be convinced we are talking about petty sqhabbles northern.

DD was swung violently and had stones thrown at her. I posted about it. I got flamed for not providing adequate supervision but I cant be there all the time when shes at school. The situations Im talking about are when the attacker has no reason and is being particularly nasty.

DD doesnt seem to get into squabnles over toys. She just lets them get on with it and finds something else.

Northern - were you bullied?

I've always taught my kids that thee are better ways to deal with most situations than physical violence, but unfortunately there are some people who will only stop when faced with a dose of their own medicine so YANBU to teach your kids to stand up for themselves.

I must admit I was strangely proud when a Y4 teacher once said about DS1 "he will never, ever start a fight but by god can he finish one"

I don't care what another child has done to yours. Teaching your child to attack that other child is wrong. It won't work either. Bullying isn't a straightforward behaviour. Cause and effect doesn't work. Teaching your child to hit brings more violence in to the situation not less.
As far as I can remember I wasn't physically bullied, no. Verbally would be another issue.

from a school perspective, if a child hits back then both children are in trouble.

Of course, most hitting is not about bullying but about an isolated incident of nastiness. In a case where a child is retaliating after persistent bullying then it would be different I suppose. I still don't like the idea though and it goes against everything we teach children in school. I know parent trumps teacher but it's a bit confusing for children to get into trouble for doing as their parents advocate.

When I was on teaching practice I sent a child out of the classroom because I saw him kick another child in the back. When I talked to him at the end of the lesson he said, 'that boy and his family are always bullying my family. My dad says if he gets at me at school I can hit him till the blood is running from his head. That's what my dad did to his dad. But they always start it so why am I in trouble?' [hmmm]

before my son was bullied at school I would be more inclined to agree with northern. However, my son's life was made a misery on and off for about 4 years and I given the opportunity to get away with it, I would quite happily have thumped a few kids myself, and I am not a violent person. but I would agree with Sunny d, there are some people who don't understand anything less than a dose of their own medicine....and manic, I think some schools pussy foot about the issue of bullying too much.

I've had a problem with my ds and his bully at school for 2 years, he is now 9, he has been both mentally and physically abused. My ds started off by not telling anyone as he didn't want anyone getting into trouble. Then we talked about him telling the teacher, but he got ignored at school. Because nothing was being done it all got worse and so I thought, rightly or wrongly, that if my ds smacked/punched him back it would be the end of it, but he just won't do it - he doesn't want to hurt anyone and to be honest I never thought he would. For many other reasons we are moving him out of the school. HOW do I get my ds to stand up for himself when he won't???? Because it is heart breaking having him come home and cry his eyes out.

IMO while there are parents who bring their kids up as bullies the rest of us have to teach ours to defend themselves.

Ofcourse there are better ways to deal with it. In an ideal world it wouldnt happen. But I need DD to be able to stand up for herself at the time.

Running to a teacher/parent can often give the bully ammunition to start teasing. If a child hits back the first time theres a chance that will be the end of it.

Effective self defence is not achieved by hitting someone back.

Everyone has the right to self defence, but advice to just hit back is not going to achieve that in isolation. Situation awareness, consequences of force and effective use of force, plus what you are trying to achieve all need consideration, as does the risk of defensive force causing escalation.

A good martial arts club with a proper junior programme is a good source of training on this, and the additional bodily confidence that comes from the training is a good thing too.

Any messages on force, other than blocking blows and actions which buy you the space to run fast to the nearest authority figure or place likely to be safer, are likely to be counterproductive. And if I turns into fist fight and your DC loses, their situation is much, much worse.

meboo - been there, tbh I don't think there is anything you can do other than build up his confidence so that he isn't a target. We tried for 4 years to make it work and I wish we had just taken him out the school. We saw that as running away at first and thought it would have a negative effect on him, but actually, staying was worse. We got to the point where it was mostly verbal and being excluded and generally indimidated by more than half the class. He ended up being tested for aspergers as he was showing really anxious behaviour at school. I hope everything works out for your son and that he makes some new friends quickly.

edith - my son has done Judo since he was 7 and is a big strong boy, his nature and the upbringing we gave him and the martial arts didn't equip him to deal with little shit bullies i'm afraid. I feel that we failed him and should have taught him something else.

The angry woman in me thinks: I will teach mine to violently put down any aggression towards them. Get punched in the face for now reason? Keep hitting them until a teacher pulls you off. Nobody will mess with you because it'll just be too risky!

But the rational woman in me thinks: enrol them in Judo.

I've done martial arts my whole life and i can tell you that sending your kids to Karate or Tae Kwon Do will be fairly useless for self defence; not to mention the "only horses kick!" response teachers tend to give to a child using Tae Kwon Do's trademark kicks. Schools tend to give a generally negative response to any striking style, i've even heard phrases like "I know he was punched first, but your child has had training in deadly techniques!".

The judo club i go to has a kids class, and they have so much fun. There's less focus on complicated throws and things, and more just general rolling around and learning to control another person's body. Regarding self defence, some of these kids who've been training a little while are brilliant against new kids who show up even when those kids are older/larger. They can gently trip them to the ground and hold them down... not hitting/choking/etc them, just pinning them down so that they feel smothered and uncomfortable. They also have a great base and are quite difficult for untrained kids to push/trip over.

In a school setting, i think a kid would get into a lot less trouble if the teacher found them merely holding the other person down after being hit themselves; a great alternative to the shocked response schools would have if your child's footprint was found on the other childs jumper after kicking them, or the dreaded bloody nose from a punch! A kid doing some basic judo just looks like a kid grappling aimlessly with another, but a kid doing Karate looks like Bruce Lee. Also, since there's not prancing about doing pointless 'kata' and kicking into the air as there is in Karate training, and instead there is live sparring against a resisting opponent, Judo is thus very effective. Good for fitness too.

meboo...

Do you have any council estates nearby that contain boxing clubs? Brilliant places. They'll be full of really rough kids and you'll be amazing how they've been tamed by the trainers who (in the UK anyway) are mostly volunteers who do it to improve the lives and futures of children from poor backrounds.

Anyway, they're great because boxing will teach your child how to hit people hard, and to deal with getting hit. I know it all sounds a bit barbaric but it's all in a controlled environment. Plus training with other kids who are generally double-hard, council-estate-bred, would-have-been-bullies themselves, they'll be scared of nobody at school.

They're also diry cheap. The place near me charges 50p per session!

I'm teaching my kids to be confident and to stand up for themselves but not by hitting back. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

You can enrol your child and get them involved in any martial art or fighting that you like (but I do agree that judo is a really good choice) but if they don't have the confidence to use it then you would be as well sending them to Ballet or acting. And actually the latter might be the best option. Social skills and self confidence are the key.