to sometimes wonder what the point of being in one monogamous relationship forever is...

[Emlys]

if you don't have children?

Emlys: even now, a large percentage of men still think, deep down, that housework is women's work and that having a woman live with them means they will get the majority of domestic chores performed for them. This message has been fed to them for generations. Individual men are trying hard to do their fair share, sure. Some have to be poked a bit and reminded a bit, even some of the ones who grew up with feminist mothers. But as I said, for all the guff about sexual exclusivity, what marriage is really about is housework and childcare.

What a depressing pov. My marriage is not about childcare and housework (have no DCs and do as little housework as possible), but I dont know whether you're right about most men thinking domestic stuff is women's work. Maybe they do, it certainly seems to be a horribly common complaint on here.

To which I would say get one of a) a cleaner, b) a spine, or c) a partner who cares more about you and your feelings.

OP - I would ask you, what is the point in being in a relationship if it isn't monogamous? I mean, why would you stay with someone if you didn't care for them enough to be exclusive?

solidgold I agree with you to a certain extent. Some men are just awful, so old fashioned, spoilt and entitled. But in many cases its women who are raising them like that, and who indulge them. I grew up in another part of Northern Europe, and it still never fails to surprise me by how old very old fashioned some parts of the UK still are in this respect.

That said, I know quite a few women who are unbelievably lazy and whose husbands run around after them.

I see it as a means to an end. DP and I look forward to a lovely shared old age!

There doesn't need to be a point, really. Be single, be multi whatsit, be monogamous, be a hermit. Life plays out regardless.

geegee I was thinking more of serial monogamy, ie more than one serious relationship in your life, rather than open relationships, though I guess they work for some people.

Emlys: I think the bottom line is that, for people living now a relationship can be what you and the other person want to make of it. If youhave a partner who does his share, treats you with kindness and courtesy and generally makes your life better by being a part of it, that's great, enjoy. Marriage as an institution is made up by human beings and can be amended by them to suit themselves, that's always been the case - what constituted a 'proper' marriage has been adapted to suit the needs of societies. EG polygamous marriages were acceptable when there were more women than men (even though it didn't do the women any favours).

Just to say that I don't regard my feelings for DH as "bullshit". He lived alone before we married and was already an excellent cook, managed his home etc.

As two adults we have always shared domestic responsibilities. He did a huge amount when I was doing my Masters while also working FT - I couldn't have done it without him. He never once complained or begrudged a second of it - was supportive and encouraging all the way. When I had cancer, and depression afterwards - again, he was there for me. I didn't have to worry about anything around the house and even now when I am back to reasonable health, he's caring, considerate and pro-active in every aspect of household management. The only domestic chore he does not do (which is by mutual agreement) is the dusting, as he is asthmatic.

I have many friends who are single and live happy, fulfilled lives but that's not what this thread is about - it's about long term relationships without children.

I can't speak for all marriages but ours is very much a marriage of equals, and we are both in it because we love each other, not because of some heteronormative stuff.

And even if you are single, household management still has to be done. We didn't marry until I was in my thirties, and I left home at 19. For all that time, I still had to clean the loo, tax the car, change the bed, do the ironing, etc. Can't be doing with this ridicolous assumption that nobody single has any domestic responsibilities. In fact, as a couple, it's generally easier and more efficient to get all the jobs done if you tackle it systematically.

Thanks Emlys, thats clearer now.

SGB I've re-read your posts on this thread and realised they make a lot more sense than my speedy first reading gave them credit for. I've just stalked you a bit (sorry) and can now tell you that 1) I think I love you, and 2) I've put the anthology you recommended on another thread on my reading list. 50 shades of drivel has been good for something after all.

And even if you are single, household management still has to be done. We didn't marry until I was in my thirties, and I left home at 19. For all that time, I still had to clean the loo, tax the car, change the bed, do the ironing, etc. Can't be doing with this ridicolous assumption that nobody single has any domestic responsibilities. In fact, as a couple, it's generally easier and more efficient to get all the jobs done if you tackle it systematically.

That's the thing isn't it! If you're in a live-in relationship, each partner should find that domestic stuff is easier than when being single. You know you're with a tosser when he (because it usually is a he, though not always I'll admit) is making more work than if you were on your own. It's amazing how many people find life that little bit easier once they've got rid of the overgrown child in the relationship.

And yet, studies are consistently finding - even in this decade - that women are still doing more than 75% of the housework.

THere is a strong link between having children and women doing more than their fair share though. It's interesting to speculate whether childless marriages tend to be more equal because of the physical lack of children, or whether it's the lack of desire for children that result in a relationship that is more equal.

I think it's a pretty established fact (ie. backed up by lots of surveys) that men benefit more from marriage and that divorced women report higher levels of happiness than divorced men.

What I don't understand then is why is there this perpetual image of women being obsessed with marriage and weddings whilst men are busily trying to avoid commitment?

Is it just a patriarchal ruse?

Messy: Yup. Keep telling women that marriage is what they want and need and that men are reluctant to offer it, and women will frenziedly pursue it without stopping to ask, what's actually in it for me?

Think of all that horrendous crap about Leap Year proposals, for instance...

Sgb's first post says it all!

We are duped into heteromonogamy because it supports patriarchal capitalism. It's brainwashing on a universal scale.

Biologically humans are meant to have several sexual partners over their life course. That is why there are so many unhappy marriages- people putting on clothes that don't fit.