To think that society should support women to have children early in adult life

[ReallyTired]

Babies born to older mothers have a higher risk of special needs, it is harder to concieve after 35 and there are more likely to be complications with giving birth and pregnancy. It is far easier to give get pregnant and birth at 25 than 40.

Unfortunately women are under huge pressure to put off childbearing until their late thirties because its very hard to build a career after children. I feel that there should be more help for mothers returning to the workplace after children and stronger legistation to combat age discrimination. Ie apprenticeships should be open to mothers returning/ starting out in the work place as well as under 25s. I would like more help to allow mothers to have career breaks and return to the work place.

Surely its easier to change the attitudes of employers than basic biology. (Ie. its far easier to have a challenging career starting in your 40s than to start a family.

the bit about older mums and sn is crap
disability at birth can happen to any baby at birth, how ever old the mother is/
I do think if like the op you are getting stuff for a article, you should at least find out basic stuff like that first.

Oh gathering isn't it obvious why? Small children and long flights do not mix well. Im desperate to go to NZ and take the kids , so i can visit an old friend who has just had a new baby. But, realistically, i have a 2 yr old boy who would be tearing up and down those isles desperate to get out. Its just who he is. My 4 yr old would be fine, but my stress levels would be way out there after hours of no sleep and hyperactivity. Theres airlines that will help as much as they can, but theres only so much they can do as they have other passengers to look after too.

O.K. In gatheringlilacs utopia, work would be more evenly distributed, there wouldn't be such a division between the work-rich and the work-poor. There also wouldn't be such an emphasis on acquiring skills whilst still relatively young, and in such intense blocks. You really could dip in and out. I do think that would rely, for a variety of reasons, on a more equitable distribution of wealth, and would help perpetuate that.

I also think that it would lessen the fear of an impoverished life, which I think drives a lot of the current model of trying to squash as many experiences as possible into the younger, childless years as possible.

I think you really would be able to kick off for 6 months/a year, with your child, to some other part of the globe, taking advantage of all those modern possibilities.

I freely admit that this is (a) utopia. Quite possibly unachievable. And a fantasy that is (very) marked by my own standpoint (Western, educated, etc.).

But I put it out there just as a "for instance". And to demonstrate that economics plays a large part in how our current model and conceptualisation of motherhood is determined.

My model is also very indebted to the work of two SF writers (Kim Stanley Robinson and another one) who start out with the idea of "what if humans had very long lives" and then start to envision how that would change human societies and life-models.

I really don't get why asking if we might envision how society might be re-modelled, to be more women-with-children shaped or to take us into account in a more thorough-going (as opposed to "added-on-as-an-afterthought) way instantly labels me as a technophobe. I honestly think that is being read into my posts, quite possibly because the female-body-with-children is over-conceptualised in opposition to technology.

I travelled all over the world pre-DC. I can't really think of a single trip that I would be willing to do now with a toddler (too dodgy, too expensive, too stressful...)

It was actually after I went to Afghanistan that I thought: okay, maybe I'm ready to have DC now. I knew nothing could really top that and I felt ready to put aside crazy travel for at least some years.

For others it might be something else, maybe they want to do a triathlon or finish a novel -- things you can do after DC but really why not do them before they become so much harder?

I'm so sick of hearing this load of bolleaux...

Some of didn't get married until our late thirties because we ended up wasting time kissing too many frogs. Note: There are a lot of them out there! Then, when we eventually ttc we find it doesn't happen due to a DH with an infertility problem.

If, at the age of 41, I somehow manage to conceive I will probably become 'one of those career woman who selfishly left it until the last minute' - tut tut!

Unlike previous generations, we don't marry the first man who comes along nor do we put up with any old crap relationship because we can't afford to leave.

Noqontrol - you see, I'd see part of the problem there as being that the hassle of getting to NZ is enormous, and you are having to weigh up hassle versus time spent there; economic cost of taking time out to go there; impact of taking time out of career on trajectory of potential life-time earnings.

If society, work, capitalism were more women-with-children shaped, in a really radical way, things would be structured so that you could leave your job for long enough to make that trip to NZ, with children, worthwhile - with no long-term cost to you.

Gathering, no amount of societal reform is going to make a 26 hour flight with a toddler bearable or desirable. Or eliminate all the travel risks of many interesting places that people go, that you wouldn't want to expose DC to. Or let you explore ruins freely without having to worry about feeding or nap times.

You really can't get around the limitations that DC bring for certain activities.

No no no gathering you are wrong. Absolutely nothing to do with economics, taking time out of work, anything like that at all. Just my state of mind or whats left of it after enduring that long flight with my 2 year old.
You're obviously quite different to me, i don't consider that other stuff at all, possibly to my detriment. As a Life long agency worker, I'm given those freedoms, plus my irresponsibility makes me not care about long term finances, although if you want to start a debate about lack of womens pensions then I will join in

Very, very true, dreamingbohemian. but it is interesting, surely, to consider how many things a bit of societal re-ordering could change. And thus how many things the current societal ordering inhibits. Surely?

No gathering you haven't come up with any reforms that would be workable and make a difference in the reality of life. Sorry, but you havent.

Our population is rising dramatically at the moment, the planet is overpopulated. People should have children when the parents are able to support them and when the parents wish to have them. If you need "society" (ie other people who don't know you and have no connection with you) in order to have kids then don't bother.
If a few fewer people who i don't know don't have kids it really doesn't bother me. This isn't a world health problem.

Oh I do think there are social changes that could help a lot. I think free/cheap child care (which other countries seem to manage) would go a long way toward making currently impossible choices for parents more possible. I think cheaper housing would alleviate a lot of pressure on parents and perhaps allow people to pursue their dreams and not just try to survive. I think more equal child-rearing between men and women would help women advance in the workplace.

But there will always be limits, and thus I think there will always be people delaying having DC until they have done all those things that DC inherently make more difficult.

In my early twenties I wasn't emotionally mature enough to take care of a baby, same goes for most of my friends who are having theirs now. We just wanted to have fun, travel and experience the world, now that's done it's time to settle. Some young women may be ready for motherhood and be very good at it in spite of their age, most aren't.

i think people should be able to have children when they want to!

i got preg with my first at 19 and at university, i was 20 when he was born and dp and i still both got our degrees, actually student life fitted in quite well with having a baby tbh! i am 33 now and have 5 children (almost 13yrs down to 19mths) and i like that i ahve done it this way, its working fine for dp and myself. but it wouldnt work for everyone and nor should it.

i WAS judged tho for having a baby so young and yes i was told to get an abortion and that i was throwing my life away and wasting my eductation. intersetingly some of the people that said that to me have since apologised and reaslied how wrong they were and said what a credit to me my children are.

what works for one person doesnt work for all, there are issues with having children at any age, it would be good if we could all do what works for ourselves and not judge each other for making different choices.

I agree. This would very positive.

Exactly- why go around judging? I also think it is a luxury to think that you plan when to have them - it doesn't work like that. You may want a child apt 22yrs but it takes you until 42yrs to manage it. You may think that 29 is the ideal age and get pregnant by accident earlier.

YABU, having children young means less chance of the relationship being stable and they also may not have the means to financially support a child. Why rush people into it?

The only person who should support the adults is themselves. We already have a very generous maternity leave system and childcare is abundant so no reason not to work and have children together. Most people do anyway as children are an expensive and its the parents who should be paying for them.

And who are women supposed to have children WITH? Very very rare to find a male in his 20s willing and able to have a child and raise a child. Women can end up bringing up TWO children.

My DS is 20yrs-he is at university-he is entirely dependent on us-all his friends are the same.

There is quite a lot of hostility on this thread. Can't help thinking there's a tiny bit of doubt hidden under some of these posts.

No-one has mentioned that one of the original 7 demands of the Britsh women's liberation movement was free community controlled 24/7 childcare. Imagine if we had achieved this? Would we have a different culture now where young children would be seen as belonging to the community rather than the sole responsibility of the individual mother? Would parents put their kids in local holiday camps whilst they went to Timbuktu? Would women be as free as men to work outwith 9-5 standard nursery times? Would we have equal pay now if this was the case? Would women choose different careers if they didn't have to think about child friendly trajectories?
And why have we never challenged the hegemony that childcare should only be used for paid employment? It is quite scary how little leisure time (essential for mental health) some mother's get. But the idea that they should use childcare to afford them this is alien in our society.

If that demand had been met and the associated societal shifts in attitudes occurred then I do think that the average age of first child would decrease back to early-mid 20s like it was in the 70s.

But I'm not being judgemental on older mothers now, who are merely responding to society's and men's demands.

when i was at uni i got a part time job and had one when doing my gcse's and a levels as well! ditto dp,my mum made it quite clear to me that once i ignored her advice to have an abortion that it was our responsibility to deal with the consequences, so we werent dependent on family actually and i know plenty of other students for whom that was the case. i can see why she did it, tough love and all that. we were lucky enough to be the last yr where you could get grants!!! remember those?! so i got that, not loads but it helped. it wasnt easy but it was ok and in some ways i think we were lucky in that we got used to just having to get by and we didnt have a lifestyle that we enjoyed (holidays etc) to change once a baby arrived, i know lots of older couples that really struggled with the changes ie drop in income etc. we cut our cloth so to speak and then since then things have only got better so now we are ok, not rich but we can afford holidays in the uk and the kids get clubs and music lessons etc no-one goes without.

whereas i have friends who were used to their 3 skiing trips a year and being able to just go away for the wkend when they felt like it and they really struggled (mainly husbands it has to be said!) with the change that children brought about. again tho it depends on the individual circumstances.

you know in rl althought i do and have met judgey people, most people are not, infact some admire me for having mine young and doing a good job, slightly patronising but hey ho, and i have friends of all ages, some in their forties, some younger, some older etc and have met people i never would have if i hadnt have had my kids when i did and they are great friends. having children can be a great leveller! we dont judge each other on when we chose to have a family! again its like the sahm/wohm debates, very polarised on here but in rl life not quite so much, tho i agree there is a huge stigma towards young mothers in general in society, not helped by the daily fail etc.

It is very difficult to get even a Saturday job or holiday job these days and then they finish university in debt-it was much easier when I was young and more viable to have a child young.

i didnt just work saturdays, i worked in a care home and fitted in shifts around school and then uni, dp did nights in a garage! and in the holidays did WHATEVER agency work he could get, he worked as a binman even, basically whatever was available. i agree its not as easy to get work at all now and we still finished uni i debt, lots of it, but it is now all paid off, the relief when we finished paying off student loans!

it must be harder now and i worry for mine and tbh will be encouraging them to look at alternatives as well as uni, happy for them to go but also encouraging them to look at more vocational and on the job training etc.

advantages and disadvantages to both. I've been a young Mum (late twenties) and older Mum (late thirties) and my experience of older Motherhood was much better. In many ways I think it's far better to wait. Why have a baby before you've had a chance to really live yourself?

You can get 100 applications to stack shelves! You need a good CV, DS had to have a group interview, (designing a musical bathtub among other things!)before he got a personal one just for a seasonal job on a Saturday.(he didn't get it-24 at the group interview for 2 jobs-goodness knows how many applications)
When I was his age I just walked down the high street until someone gave me one-I doubt if I knew what a CV was-I certainly didn't have one!
Life has changed.