to think that medical students should be funded differently than students on other courses?

[ChunkysMum]

Their course is 5-6 years long so accumulated debt is higher.

Their long hours and reduced length of Summer holidays (2-4 weeks) makes supporting themselves through extra-curricular employment difficult.

There starting wage when they qualify is actually alot lower than many other graduates (five-six years after starting their degree).

They often have to commute to different hospitals.

Atm they get a bursary to cover tuition fees in the final year only, but for a low income student, the way that this works out with a reduced student loan they end up with £1000 less to spend on food etc in the final year.

Been reading this with interest as I applying to do my Nursing Degree later this year.

I have been to visit a couple of unis and they DO pay travel longer distances than from home to uni for placements. The NHS do pay fees and they are not repayable.

The bursary is means tested, so if your H or P earns over a set amount (around £40K) you get no bursary. This does not apply to me!!

The Access to Learning Fund (ALF) will provide money to students from low income families who can demonstrate a shortfall in their maintenance which might previously have been covered by working in the holidays/living at home with parents. It's important applications are made early, as funds are limited.

Her rent is nearly £400 per month and has to be paid all year round and two years ago the student loan had not gone upto £9k. She gets around £700 per term.

I shouldnt think there many newly qualified doctor starting in August who will earn a basic salary only. On top of their basic, for much of their first year they will get a supplement of 40 or 50% as well. That may well be the case for at least 8 of their first 12 months.

Junior doctors arent over-paid in general imho, but their basic salaries bear very little relation to their actual salaries (unless you work in a 9 - 5 post). In terms of very long hours, this has changed dramatically in the last 12 years. There are now limits on hours, and where these are exceeded, doctors are exceedingly well rewarded - receiving a supplement of 100% of their basic salary to recompense them (these limits might only be exceeded on 1 or 2 occasions, and by only one colleague, but all doctors working that rota will receive that 100% supplement) If their working hours are then revised to ensure they are working well within the limits, they will continue to receive a protected supplement of 80% of their basic salary for as long as they remain in post. Now that is astonishing.

Follyfoot

The supplements are 20 and 40% depending on the rota, not 50%. There are a lot of foundation doctors in unbanded posts.

There are 50% bandings. There are junior doctors working in unbanked posts although these are usually in the second year (FY2).

My FY1 posts were banded 50%, 50% and 40%. So I made a little over £30 000. This is a good salary. I'm definitely not disputing that. I was enormously lucky to have a job to go to - lots of my friends graduating from other areas didn't. Of course you have to do things like work 14 days in a row, 14 hour shifts etc which is what the banding is for. The 48 hour week is averaged over 8 weeks, not each week limited to 48 hours. And you invariably work over.

However it's not quite as nice and straightforward as the posts above indicate. If you think you are regularly breaking the 48 hour week you can ask for monitoring to happen. This means that over a 2 week period everyone in the rota has to fill out forms indicating which hours they've worked. If not everyone fills in the forms nothing changes, there is huge pressure from above to lie on the forms. If the department has to pay you more the money has to come from somewhere, they're not keen. A lot of the seniors will have worked 80 hour weeks (although been payed for them) and think today's juniors have a cushy deal and don't want to support us moanin about it. Not in my department but have heard of people being threatened with not signing off competencies/portfolios if people are honest on monitoring forms. It's really difficult, departments are strapped for cash, you have a well paid job and you do it for the patients but you don't actually want to be walked over/work for free at the expense of family life and not be remunerated. I know one department where the 100% banding did go through there was a huge amount of animosity from the department. For paying the juniors for the hours they'd been working. You're supposed to lie down and take that you know!

I remember colleagues being thrilled with the 50% banding... I wanted the time not the money!

I'd do it for less money, I didn't go into it for the money, but frankly I don't appreciate terms and conditions not being stuck to as being walked over as I won't leave because I care.

And anyway, this isn't even the point as this all happens after medical school. You haven't earned the money when you start!! So you have to have some to do it. It's not impossible but it is prohibitive particularly to those from less well off backgrounds.

It seems to me it would make more sense to make the profession more accessible to people other than those with rich families, so that they're were enough doctors that they didn't all need to work overtime and they could all be paid a reasonable salary.

Outragedabouthepriceofredos, unfortunately, it's not that simple. In the uk, the number of medical student places is very tightly controlled by the government, and has been substantially cut (by about 20%) in recent years. The government is quite cynically doing this to save on training costs and will simply "steal" dr's from other contrives to make up the shortfall.

Also, a few people have mentioned the living-cost loans for students, we were shocked last year to discover that our DS couldn't actually get one (in Scotland the cut off for the assessed loan is an income of £36k), above and beyond a minimum payment of £900 per year (Scottish student). Fee loan is separate. We pay over £500 month for his housing costs and have had to re-mortgage our house because his sibling starts uni in a couple of months.

There courses are a minimum of 6 years, and 5 years, each course has the option of an additional year..... that's an awful lot of money, £1000+per month and you can see why many middle/high income families are struggling with university costs, it's not just people on lower incomes..... not surprising that there has been a drop in applications this year!

*their courses.

My dad is delaying his retirement to help fund my sister through medical school :(

DS4 is going to be a peadiatric oncologist.
I have no idea how we are going to help him fund his studies.
We have a low income. I dont think there are few w/c doctors because of lack of desire/ambition/intelligence.
Money has to pay a huge part surely.

Good job he is only four. It gives us a bit of time to work things out.

That's VIC, but I am not surprised, the living cost loans (not just for medics of course) are way below the actual cost of living (modestly) even if the student is able to borrow the highest amount.
For longer courses, it all adds up (literally!) to a lot of parental help required. A lot of pressure on parental budgets especially if there is more than one child to support.

I don't even want to think about the situation we will find ourselves in 3 years time, with all 3 DC at university at the same time

Whatever the fee structure, better provision needs to be put in place for students from poorer backgrounds if we really want to keep the best and brightest - and not just the richest - in medicine.

I was going to quote this. That i see a lot of doctors who are doctors becuse of their famly, that they are rich, that it was expected, that they could afford to go to medical school...and I see this a lot

Then...I thought about the doctors I have worked with, those I have stood side by side with as someone has a stroke in front of us...those I consider my friends...and realise they care as much as I do (with more responsibilty), work the hours I do (with a lot more pay and life changing considerably more life prospects) amd came to a realisation...

...I say, my nurse training is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Ever. At 21, my friends wore nice clothes, worked socialble hours in offices and earned a lot more (no travel expenses/milage here!). I worked nights, weekends, bank holidays, wore an ugly uniform and held the hands of 34 year olds as they died in front of me, and tried desperately, in vain, to find something to say to their 32 year old widow. I wouldn't change it BTW. Hard? Fuck yes. Better than selling paper, even if my well-dressed, paper-selling friends earned more? Yes, it's humbling and am amazing job to do.

At the time, I worked with some stupid doctors whom I used to think were there because they were rich. But, in retrospect, I think If someone can get through their medical training, fair play to them. If I found it hard, they must have found it harder, with more respnsibilty.

Wow, that was a rant, wasn't it? My bottom line...as long as it doesn't exclude the best students (access on ability, not priviledge) then if you can survive your training, which you cannot complete without giving a bit of your soul (otherwise you'd be an artitect!) then fine, you deserve you pay.

But students shoudn't get more...their earnings in the future more than compensate.

The same should go for nurses and AHPs too.

And I strongly believe that the Con-Dems will do untold damage to the NHS; medicine will once again become the remit of those that can afford it, not those that care and nurses will get such bad pay/work-life balance/pension deal that only the worst will stay, losing those with the necessary compassion and intelligence and ablility and desire to stay in such a tough profession

Excuse the typos, especially in the last paragraph. I blame the wine (day off tomorrow!)

We have a low income. I dont think there are few w/c doctors because of lack of desire/ambition/intelligence.
Money has to pay a huge part surely.

MRSDEVERE, if that's still his ambition in a few years, don't worry about it too much - low income students can get, in addition to maximum loans, grants and also bursaries (which do not need to be repaid) from their universities.

I do worry about it though.
DS1 has decided against university. He is a very talented musician but couldnt cope with the idea of all that debt.

I dont blame him. Things is we have bought him up with the 'dont buy what you cant afford, dont buy things on tick, dont use credit' ethos.

It makes piling up thousands of pounds worth of debt very scary.

It might seem illogical or daft but its a very real fear.
Surely everyone leaves with debt and medical degrees cost about 60k dont they?

Scares the behoozas out of me!

And what do you mean if its still his ambition?

I decided I was going to be a doctor at the age of 3, so don't put it past him!

YABU what about the bar? less job guarantee, just as long to study, just as important job. Should they have their their fees funded by the gov? I don't think so I think they need to be independent.

Good on you if your children are studying medicine or for the bar. The majority of people do not have children that could potentionally (depending on how ambitious your dcs are)have such good careers.

Your dc will make of life what they will, some drs will underperform, some will out perform. The same with those who take the bar. The same as some people with no A levels who make a good happy life for themselves.

Just be aware if your dc want to do something and you are happy for them save bloody the fuck up.

Try qualifying as a vet! Five-six years study minimum, and no real prospects of high earnings there for the vast majority. It is a true vocation, I think.

goodasgold it used to be the case in the past that the law or medicine was pretty much a guaranteed route to a very high salary. Now, there are plenty of other routes, some not very traditional. The world has changed, there are many career paths for people to go into which are potentially as well or better paid, and theres a public interest arguement in keeping medicine attractive to the best students, not just the wealthiest.

MrsDeVere 100k+ would be more like it (English med school, full loans) but look, seriously, it is that fear of debt (never borrow etc) that is deterring many bright/talented kids from applying to the courses they really want to do

Student loans SHOULD NOT be regarded in the same way as other forms of debt, really, really it shouldn't. It is paid back ONLY when you have reached certain payment thresholds, it can be written off if you never earn, or are a low earner. it is not like running up a credit card or getting behind with your rent/mortgage...... it is not a mis-management of income, it's an investment in the future!

And of course it will still be his ambition!

'The supplements are 20 and 40% depending on the rota, not 50%. There are a lot of foundation doctors in unbanded posts.'

I'm afraid you are wrong fireice. There are 100% (band 3), 80% (band 2A), 50% (1A and 2B) , 40% (1B) and 20% (1C) supplements. Band 2A is less common these days, and there are very few F1 and F2 Drs on a band 1C due to working time and the move to shifts from on calls. Most F1s and F2s will get banding at some point in each rotation.

I have no problems with doctors earning more than I do. At times they have our lives in their hands. Literally.

I am a teacher. I feel underpaid but lets face it, if I don't turn up nobody dies.
And if I make a mistake nobody dies then either!

Doctors should have free training and high salaries. I depend on them.

(P.S. I am NOT a doctor, nor am I married to one!)

There can't be that many FY posts with band 3 as that's a non-compliant post that would not be supported by the Deanery (FYs are quite protected as still very much in training especially pre-registration).
I have been presurised to lie every time I've had to fill out an hours banding form thing for one reason and another. Atm I work 7-7 most days, 7-10 or later if on call, +nights/weekends, so 60+ hours a week (which is a lot better than other jobs I've done).
I don't really think med students should get any different treatment from anyone else; there are plenty of other "deserving" cases and although I find it hard to see where I'm going to get a job employment rates remain reasonably high.

How do you save up 100k?

You can only save the fuck up if you have spare cash.

So again the lak of w/c doctors isn't about intelligence is it?