to think that medical students should be funded differently than students on other courses?

[ChunkysMum]

Their course is 5-6 years long so accumulated debt is higher.

Their long hours and reduced length of Summer holidays (2-4 weeks) makes supporting themselves through extra-curricular employment difficult.

There starting wage when they qualify is actually alot lower than many other graduates (five-six years after starting their degree).

They often have to commute to different hospitals.

Atm they get a bursary to cover tuition fees in the final year only, but for a low income student, the way that this works out with a reduced student loan they end up with £1000 less to spend on food etc in the final year.

www.dundee.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/nursing.htm

SusanneL, Minimum requirements, CC Higher +3 SG at "3" or above for undergrad nursing....... I imagine though, students would be expected to be above that minimum unless there was an unexpectedly low number of applicants or mitigating factors.

it's £34-36k after 2 years btw. asked another friend at the weekend.

That's for a surgical traineeship.

plus, all those people going on about entry requirements, should every one who gets all As get their fees paid?

That would mean more rich kids would get their fees paid though...

www.dundee.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/nursing.htm

whoops, live link this time!

SCOTCHand WRY-I know what it SAYS, but in practice, there is no way they are actually accepting any students with such low qualifications.As I have already said, Glasgow Caledonian say BBC as minimum wouldnt accept my daughter two years ago with a BBCC. She had to go and do her NC and HNC. And then got a conditional on passing her HNC. There were over 600 applicants for 60 places.Trust me they can do what they like.

UWS are looking for above minimum too, as DH needed and HNC to get in to do nursing in 2007.And they had spare places.

"it's £34-36k after 2 years btw. asked another friend at the weekend.

That's for a surgical traineeship."

It's not. Basic wage (for 40 hours) for a new SHO is £29,705.

www.nhsemployers.org/Aboutus/Publications/Documents/Pay-Circular-MD-1-2012.pdf

There is no difference in basic pay whether you are a surgeon or a physician. It all comes down to seniority.

As for "they all do substantial overtime", you do know that this is not voluntary. It is just in the last few years that our hours have dropped from 56 hours a week to 'only' 48 hours. For those extra hours, there is an added payment of 20-50% depending on the amount of hours and the proportion of hours that are out of hours, as I linked earlier.

www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553

"So my original point is totally correct. By the age of 40, most will be earning at least £80000."

Your original point said doctors work a 3 day week for that! Oh, if only...

"No shame in earning good money, just do not play the poor mouth. "

Not ashamed of my salary at all, but I will object to the out and out lies that are being peddled here.

Oh and the reason they want well above the minimum(especially for schoolleavers) is because there is a very high dropout rate in nursing, people that cant keep up with the course.

A lot of the minimum is NOT for school-leavers, it is for adults, as nursing attracts a lot of more mature students and they may not have the minimum qualifications,but have enough life experience to be good nurses.

sorry only have min qualifiactions

Ethelb, well, I was going on about entry requirements and the difficulties of getting in to certain courses but I wasn't suggesting at all that A's in your exams should mean your fees getting paid.....

Those course with the toughest entry requirements do tend to be the ones with the longest courses and longest training after qualification, and I think that means better loans packages need to be available so that students from less well off backgrounds (and grants for the very poorest), are not put off applying to those courses.

England is unusual in not having free higher education, many other European countries don't charge students; if graduates earn more, they pay more tax. My degree was free - never earned much, now disabled so can't work at all. So could never have paid it off, just hung round my neck for ever.

I know, SusanneL that's why I said in my post, I assume they would be expected to get more than the minimum .

Nursing is pretty unique in that it attracts a lot of mature students who don't have the school qualifications, but have the common sense and brains to be able to do the course/job so I agree that the low minimum is aimed more at them than the school leavers.

@bartlet I don't disapprove of Dr wages, but I agree with poster over the fact that Drs winging about wages does leave a bad taste in the mouth.

Plus, I know Drs work long hours, so quoting the wage for 40h pw is misleading. Adding 50% on for extra hours is a lot. No-one is denying it is worked very hard for, but it is a significant wage.

Many on MN would love extra hours, many would like less but you need to be honest about the hours.

No other profession quotes their salary for IF they worked 2/3 of the hours that they actually do.

JuliaScurr England is unusual in not having free higher education, many other European countries don't charge students; if graduates earn more, they pay more tax. My degree was free

I agree it is very strange. And thats how it used to be in the UK until recently. But of course its all about equality now. Everyone is given the opportunity to go to university, as their lack of opportunity at school might have impinged upon their marks. This means less funding for everyone. Which of course defeats the purpose of making university education more accessible for the less priveleged!

(I actually think theres merit in re-introducing student grants for those getting certain grades at A level/Scottish Higher who(se) (parents) earn under a certain amount, but politically it would be a no-goer).

I think in some subjects, its now cheaper to go abroad and do them than stay in the UK.

By the age of 40, most will be earning at least £80000. You quote basic, no one I know is paid basic, they all do substantial overtime.

Doctors shouldn't need to do overtime to be well paid. I'd prefer to be treated by someone who isn't overtired from working overtime on a regular basis thanks.

Presumably they start off having to do overtime to pay for their loans and a reasonable standard of living as well as a mortage.

It seems to me it would make more sense to make the profession more accessible to people other than those with rich families, so that they're were enough doctors that they didn't all need to work overtime and they could all be paid a reasonable salary.

So people on low incomes will get help, but what about the rest of us that don't currently qualify for FSMs or come in the 'disadvantaged' catergory. My ds wants to do medicine. If he sticks with this plan I have no idea how we are going to help him through it. We aren't poor enough to qualify for any help, but we certainly are no where near rich enough to get him through it either.

Is to really that much to ask that he could go to medical school and come out without a ridiculous amount of debt? Considering he would actually be providing a much needed public service? The though of it at the moment is quite scary, I'm dreading finding ourselves in a position where we are encouraging ds away from the thing he really wants to do because of the cost.

It does get written off after I think 25 years, so some people may just get half of it written off, like in your case Julia. That won't happen for doctors though- they will earn enough to pay it back.

Susanne I don't know if you know, but wouldn't some of the English students potentially have lower grades then? They would have conditional offers, or would the university actually make an offer higher than that?

Just being picky here, but there is no 50% banding supplement for additional hours - it is 20% or 40% for training jobs with an out of ours component depending on the frequency and antisocial nature of the shifts.

Not all trainees are required to work on an out of hours rota.

ethelb - I dont think that doctors do whinge about low pay, I think that what they do get irritated at is people suggesting that they earn far more than they do.
I think that most doctors do feel that they get a generally fair salary (apart from the pension thing obviously). Doctors who don't like working in the NHS, or feel underpaid can of course work for more money in the private sector, either by working reduced hours within the NHS, or by leaving it entirely.

"I don't disapprove of Dr wages, but I agree with poster over the fact that Drs winging about wages does leave a bad taste in the mouth. "

This is what I have to agree with. I get that doctors are clever, hard working people - but there is a tendency to describe themselves as "the brightest and best" (which I've never really got) and then complain about their salaries.

I see it's fairly typical. Engineers complain and compare themselves to accountants, and accountants to lawyers and lawyers to doctors, and doctors to bankers. I bet the bankers probably moan about their salaries compared to oligarchs.

But I think most people think doctors are reasonably well paid for what they do.

Two years ago my dd was offered BBB at Surrey to do nursing. She gets the NHS bursary for her tuition fees and then the usual student loan for her living costs. It doesn't cover her rent and she only gets four weeks summer holiday this year so not long enough to get a summer job.
She is lucky enough to have a very flexible job but a lot of her placements are 9-5 Monday to Friday not including travel to them so difficult for many of them to get a job during term time.

NCIS - a student loan is £9000 or £750 a month. How can that not cover her rent?!

Samandi
I think you are confusing the loan for maintenance with that for tuition. 2012/13 figures for the maintenance part of the loan are:
?£5,500 if you live away from home and study at a university or college outside London
?£7,675 if you live away from home and study at a university or college in London
?£4,375 if you live at home
If your parents earn more than a certain amount, these amounts are reduced.

Not quite samandi. There are actually two loans.

The £9000 is tuition fees and paid straight to the university.

The maximum student 'living cost' loan is about £3700.

Sorry, I've given the minimum. Lilymaid is right.

Plus3, of course I feel exactly the same admiration knowing that you are an ICU nurse. There's no getting out of difficult shifts in ICU nursing either.

SCOTCHandWRY - you are correct, Cambridge students are now banned from undertaking paid employment during term time (and discouraged from working outside of term bar the long vacation).