to think that medical students should be funded differently than students on other courses?

[ChunkysMum]

Their course is 5-6 years long so accumulated debt is higher.

Their long hours and reduced length of Summer holidays (2-4 weeks) makes supporting themselves through extra-curricular employment difficult.

There starting wage when they qualify is actually alot lower than many other graduates (five-six years after starting their degree).

They often have to commute to different hospitals.

Atm they get a bursary to cover tuition fees in the final year only, but for a low income student, the way that this works out with a reduced student loan they end up with £1000 less to spend on food etc in the final year.

i'm pro-nhs, pro-doctors, anti-fees but I have to say I don't agree.

Soemone training to be a teacher after a 4 year degree (language or industry year) would pay more as they woudl have to pay post grad fees for the trianign year.

Plus, the idea that 22k is a low starting salary for a post grad at the moment is deeply naive. Plus, they are all on different scales. A friend of mine has a £28K starting salary as she has to do nights. The 22k figure doesn't include that.

Bartlett do you have any information on the grades at A level/Scottish Higher required for entry into medicine as compared to nursing/teaching?

The idea that doctors are not well paid is farcical. At the moment they are complaining because the Govt is trying to cut their pension - you know, that money you get when you are retired, have paid off the mortgage, when the children are off your hands. They currently get £68,000. In retirement they get two-and-a-half times the average working wage. Feel sorry for them now?

YABU - they get unsocial hr payments on top of that basic salary. I was working with a registar who was moaning that his basic pay was only £35K, but then he admitted that actually it was closer to £70K with his unsocial hrs and overtime! (which are part of the job)

I don't begrudge Drs their salaries....well, maybe him as I spent the night telling him how to treat his patients

I did a nursing degree, and was treated like every other student - student loans, no bursary. Top point of a Sister's payscale is £40K. (which I'm sure you will find utterly unnecessary..)

Medicine is still AAA as far as I know.

Teaching...a friend of mine did primary education. Her offers were AAB/ABB (but most people I know did PGCSE, so a bit different).

I'm afraid I have no idea about nursing, I'll have a look.

for my nursing degree (1995) my offer was BBB (science A levels)

What rubbish re starting salaries, within 5 years they are no longer junior doctors and are going for consutancy or GPs, doing three days work for 80,000-100,000. Getting another 40,000 for private work.
My friend works for a doctors' company doing their billing and tax etc. and he is says it is truly amzing what they earn by the age of 40.
They are very well paid. Why on earth do people think it is so competitive?
Let's not forget the pensions either. Not saying they do not do a great job but please.....free fees. It costs the NHS a huge amount anyway.

geegee have just checked. Nursing at Birmingham (so I would say fairly representative) wants three A levels, ABB.

Also interesting to note that many universities have put NatSci/engineering grades up this year. It's not so unusual to find AAA/AA*A offers any more (not counting Cambridge).

I worked 20 hours a week though med school tutoring kids at £20 per hour. This gave me a gross salary of £400 per week.
My studies did not suffer-in fact I graduated from Cambridge with distinction.
I would also like to add the vast majority of students come from wealthy backgrounds-I was the only person in my year to come from an unemployed household.

How long ago did you study to be a nurse plus3?

Any friends who are currently studying nursing are funded by NHS bursaries.

It's not that doctors don't earn well, but if it's just high pay that you want, don't become a doctor, it's not worth it.

Currently, of all of my friends that started university at the same time (I'm thinking of a group of ten friends) in 2006, the medical students struggled for the longest and are earning the least (at 6 years after starting uni), with the exception of one person doing a post-grad degree. This should improve with time, but you have to get through these years before you can become highly paid.

We don't want the difficulties of medical studentdom (which is made harder due to the way that it's currently funded) to put off the best candidates.

We also don't want to pay the high amounts that it costs to train a medical student only for them to have to drop out as they can't afford it. This has happened to people that I know if their parents have stopped supporting them.

Nursing students get mileage

No they don't!

"Salaries for Doctors are obscene"

They have obviously gone up then because when I was working in the NHS 15 years ago they were not very high at all particularly bearing in mind the hours that they work.

You were obviously an exceptional student turbo1. Congrats.

There do seem to be many people studying medicine who come from wealthy backgrounds, but the way that it's funded will have something to do with this.

I did a 4 yr degree, plus 2 specialised post registration courses.

Medicine is changing. One of my consultants was saying she would never encourage her children into medicine, and wishes she had gone into banking instead.

I work in Intensive care, and we are finding it hard to employ registrars because apparently drs nowadays don't seem to want either the pressure of intensive care, or the hours attached.

Being clever and wanting to earn alot of money aren't reasons enough to do medicine.

My apologies, the nursing students in Nottingham, York and Leeds get mileage if their income's low enough. (I can't speak about anywhere else as I only know nurses studying at each of these places).

Thanks Scatter. And of course meeting or surpassing the grades is not the end of it, but only the beginning. Most medical students have to convince a panel at interview, show evidence of work or practical experience, get a high mark in the UKCat - anything to make them stand out amongst the host of other brilliant candidates. Its highly competitive.

bamboostalks I don't see what earning well by the age of 40 has to do with it. Most very bright students will earn well by the age of 40!

turbo1 I'm guessing you were able to get 20 hours a week tutoring because you were based in Cambridge, where parents like to send their children for intensive tuition and there are a lot of colleges. Its not available everywhere. It is true though that many medical students come from wealthy backgrounds. Expect this to increase as for many funding such a long degree themselves is just not feasible, as costs are now greater than in the past.

Being clever and wanting to earn alot of money aren't reasons enough to do medicine

That's why I'd be a dentist. None of the pressures of doctoring.

@geegee

There are kids doing A levels and GCSEs all over the country.

That's why I'd be a dentist. None of the pressures of doctoring

But you'd have to look in peoples' mouths all day [boak].

I have the greatest respect for doctors, but medicine still attracts the brightest and the best. It has the lowest levels of graduate unemployment of any degree. Plenty of hugely bright Oxbridge non-medical graduates do struggle to find work. When they do find work, most of them don't end up as hedge fund managers, plenty go into teaching, the voluntary sector, and other relatively low paid jobs. For medicine, I think there could be some means tested bursaries for students from very poor backgrounds to help with expenses - people who would have qualified for free school meals.

Starting salaries are not huge, but rise very quickly. I do think that Plus3 has a good point about certain areas of medicine struggling to attract doctors. If I was a doctor, I would far prefer to work in a role with relatively predictable hours, and as little on-call as possible. For A&E and ICU and some other areas, consultant cover is needed around the clock and stress levels are high. You are never going to be promoted out of having to do the rubbish shifts. Plus3, you have my greatest respect for choosing such a difficult speciality .

Don't know where you are getting the idea that doctors' salaries are obscene. My sister is doctor and 6 years after qualifying earns £37,000 basic salary. With over £20,000 debt remaining from student loan. Hardly obscene.

Are doctors salaries really obscene? My friends who work in hospitals (mid 30's) are not yet consultants, aren't on anything like £80k and are struggling. One is leaving the UK because she can't afford to support her family anymore on only her wage (DH is sick and can't work). Another pays more in childcare than she receives in wages, because of the hours she works. There are more but you get the picture.

tallslut - it's not obscene, but it's pretty good. Most of the postgraduates I know are still on salaries around the £16,000 - £24,000 mark several years after graduating.

I think that the obvious solution is for the students debts to be repaid for every year that they work for the NHS (as long as we have one), go into the private domain and pay your own debts.

I dont think that medical students are by the lack of bursary etc. I think that long term uncertainty and pension changes are more likely to put people off, but the number of people applying to medical school are high, and a significant proportion of applicants are fantastic.

With regards to this comment:
"What rubbish re starting salaries, within 5 years they are no longer junior doctors and are going for consutancy or GPs, doing three days work for 80,000-100,000. Getting another 40,000 for private work. "