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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Wtf!!!

333 replies

Isityouorme · 02/07/2012 20:20

Catching up on Gordon Ramsey's Behind Bars and apparently the prisoners get 5 choices for the evening meal!!! No fucking way! This is taking the mickey! No wonder this country is fucked up.....

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 03/07/2012 20:54

Having worked with offenders for a long time, I think I have some insights. Denial is an amazing thing and people who do terrible things lock some of this stuff away. They don't think of themselves as murderers or rapists and use ways to make this stuff OK with themselves. Thinking that people in prison are evil, know they are evil and are rubbing their hands together, cackling to themselves is a common misconception. Sometimes they justify their actions, sometimes violence and theft is so normal to them they don't really know it's wrong. Sometimes it is the desperation of addiction or poverty.

The vast majority of people in prison are not there for rape, child abuse and murder. For the record, even if they were I would still want them fed well.

pumpkin I didn't ask if you had stole, been arrested or been in prison but if you had broken the law.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 20:59

Novack - yes we seem to have an emotional attachment to imprisonment, blithely passing by the repeated lesson that the re-offending rates keep telling us that we are being incredibly stupid about it. But we seem to like the idea of incarceration.

Housespouse · 03/07/2012 21:11

MrsTP and Pan I couldn't agree more.

Not just the innocent, but even murderers should be fed properly. How could we possibly be part of a society that locks people up for the rest of their life and doesn't treat them decently?

I heard Claudia Sturt (a prison governor) give a very moving address about the reality of prison life: of sleeping with your face 15 inches away from your open toilet that you can't clean because you are not trusted with bleach (unless you decide to use your toothbrush, or your key fob), of never getting away from the smell of faeces, of lying awake at night hearing people crying and self harming. Being in prison is sufficient punishment for any crime; we do not have to make people ill too through poor nutrition.

The lifer I visit tells me how her fellow inmates are regularly trying to kill themselves. Of how she has some friends whose cells she is nervous to visit as there is sometimes the results of a suicide attempt (successful or failed) And of how she tries to stay out of the hospital wing as that is where it is worst (so she never admits to being ill, even seriously ill). This is so wrong and all starts with the kind of knee jerk response that prisoners have forfeited all their human rights.

Oh, and because only the hardest criminals work in the prison kitchens (it is too dangerous unless you have status in the prison), the food can often be contaminated. You would not wish that on anyone, 5 choices or otherwise.

On the cost side, let's lock up fewer people and for less time. Let's concentrate more on meaningful justice and on rehabilitation and education. It will be cheaper and more effective in the long run, even with decent food.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/07/2012 21:19

Let's not forget, as well, that there is a basic problem with feeding Jews and Muslims pork in prison. Why should you be punished worse than other people because of your religion, which is what this boils down to? I'm sad that anyone would want to. Just for the sake of it.

Prison is horrible. I agree with Housespose. I have spent a lot of time in prisons both in the UK and Canada. I volunteered and also worked for a housing charity so I interviewed people there. There are noisy, smelly, brutal, scary places. No amount of frankly shitty dinner choices would make me want to spend more time in one.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 21:24

House I've been in two women's prisons in the last two weeks - Styal and Askham Grange. Two entirely different regimes, but they cater for two different stages of sentence. Neither are places to linger, and Michelin 5* wouldn't be enough.

ithaka · 03/07/2012 21:27

Yes, prisons are noisy, smelly, brutal places. They are prisons, for locking up criminals.

I cannot wring my hands over someone being 'forced' to eat pork (oh, the humanity!) when I know the lifelong trail of sadness and loss a criminal leaves in their wake.

There is little support and care for the victims of crime, but they are the people that have my sympathy. They have committed no crime yet they often have to endure far worse than eating a bit of pork. Have some perspective, please.

NovackNGood · 03/07/2012 21:27

At least women's prisons are a far sight better than the victorian cells we leave men to rot in are.

PenisVanLesbian · 03/07/2012 21:28

Should vegetarians on remand be force fed meat? Should those who haven't yet been proven guilty get to choose between halal and vegan?
What about petty criminals, the non-violent, different rules for them? Or should we just starve them all and hope some of them die and then we won't have to worry about it? Hmm

Going to prison does not mean losing ALL human rights. For all of you who feel so superior to these criminals, your complete lack of compassion and understanding brings you down closer to their level than you think.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/07/2012 21:33

I'm trying to think of something that would be the same to me as pork would be to a Muslim or Jew. It would need to be dirty, wrong, culturally disgusting... dog's testicles? Every day for dinner?

I agree there is not enough support for victims. Amazingly, I have room on my conscience for both victims and perpetrator. Aren't I just Mother Theresa?

As part of my job I work with victims of crime as well. Horrible crimes, including domestic violence on the nasty end. I hate the crime. I can still feel compassion for the little boy, beaten by his father, scared and alone, who turned into the arsehole that beat someone I work with. Crimes do not happen in isolation. there is a reason (not an excuse) for everything.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 21:34

ithaka - the needs of victims and offenders are not mutually exclusive, and are not in competition with each other. Yes the supply of resources to victims are inadequate. But that comes back to our lack of intelligence about criminal justice i.e conviction and lock up is the best way. Fortunately restorative justice and mediation are attracting greater funding, esp for juvenile offenders and their victims.

BonnieBumble · 03/07/2012 21:36

I know a 19 year old who is in prison for the third time. I don't think he will ever change, his life will be a constant cycle of committing crime, running away, getting caught, breaking bail conditions and serving time. He quite likes prison and he told my relative that the best thing about prison is the food. He gets three meals a day, he never even got one meal a day on the outside.

If he had been raised in a stable environment with a bed of his own and food when he was hungry he might have never got into the cycle of crime in the first place. People like him have no chance because the parents needs are considered above the needs of their children.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/07/2012 21:46

Bloody good point Bonnie. If I have access to decent food on the outside, then a choice of 5 meals on the inside is not going to appeal.

I just keep thinking that if people met some of these offenders and saw that they are so much more than their crime, they wouldn't want to make them suffer. Most of them have already suffered more than I probably will in my lifetime.

WhiteWidow · 03/07/2012 21:47

I've met many offenders. Lots of them are/were my friends. My views stay the same.

catinboots · 03/07/2012 21:49

Novack - women's prisons are hardly a picnic Hmm

ThePan · 03/07/2012 21:53

I saw some of Gordon Ramsey's thing - what was so noticeable was the proportion of black men in the film, and the prisoners utter inability to sort a lot of stuff out without shouting and be slightly co-operative to reach a goal. And, their age. I think Brixton is a local prison, and the age there was so much higher than the national average of male prisoners. People who have been in and out and in and out - something of an indictment of the whole prison works malarky.

ithaka · 03/07/2012 21:54

The 'offender' who decimated my family comes across as lovely - I am sure you would all defend their right to eat nicely to the hilt.

Regardless, it does not matter how pleasant or unpleasant they are, whilst in prison they are serving time for the crime they committed and should only have the nutrition required to survive.Healthy food, but not a choice of food. Seems pretty reasonable to me (and for much of the world's population would count as luxury)

ThePan · 03/07/2012 21:59

Well, for me I'd urge the right of anyone at the mercy of state-provided food for a period to have access to something decent and appropriate to their need, whether it's in hospital army or prison.
As I say, the food thing in prison is a teenyweeny issue when looking at the bigger stuff behind prisons.

pumpkinsweetie · 03/07/2012 22:00

No MrsTerry i have not ever broken the law

squeakytoy · 03/07/2012 22:00

"The vast majority of people in prison are not there for rape, child abuse and murder. For the record, even if they were I would still want them fed well"

I bet if it was a member of your own family who had been raped, abused or died, you would be a little less generous towards them.

Rapists, child abusers, murderers..... I would happily like every day of their lives to be as miserable and uncomfortable as possible actually. They lost their right to be respected as a human being when they committed their crime in my view.

pumpkinsweetie · 03/07/2012 22:02

Totally agree sqeakytoy, i for one think people(creatures) that can commit peadophillia, rapists & murders are not worth the air we breath.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 22:04

Well, from a victim's point of view, the most singular response to what they wish to happen is that 'no-one should have happen to them what happened to me'. Some people take that as a cue for a working out of their own anger, NOT the victim's. But on an internet thread there's not much chance of hearts and minds being changed.

RubyGates · 03/07/2012 22:04

Why does healthy/nutritious = choice?
Healthy nutritous vegan option can also be vegetarian, halal, and kosher. No-one is forcing anyone to eat anything abhorrent.

Anaemia can be treate with iron pills, so no actual need for meat at all. Lots of spinach and healthy grains!

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/07/2012 22:07

squeaky you have absolutely no idea what has happened to members of my family. I will not go into detail in order to justify my position but one of the things on your list has happened to one of my closest family members. Don't assume you know what people feel. Just because I would do anything for that not to have happened, doesn't mean I lose rational thought.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 22:17

I think I would wish to aspire to the grace shown by the parents of Damelola Taylor's parents when he was knifed to death in London, and NOT revert to a reactive aggressive posture which helps no-one.

ThePan · 03/07/2012 22:22

hmm..parents of Damelola Taylor's parents....one set of parents too many there.Smile