to think that gender selection should be legalised in the uk?

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

I have three glorious boys. I would love to have a girl as well.

I really don't understand why PGD for gender selection is illegal in the UK. I completely accept that it should not be funded through the nhs, but can not see why couples can not pay privately.

You are not choosing eye colour etc, simply the gender of your child to balance your family dynamic.

If ivf couples are allowed to pick/choose/freeze embryos, why is PGD illegal?

Aibu to think that it should be legal in this country? I would not be trying to create a 'superior race', just balance our family with a girl - a daughter for me and DH and a sister for my sons.

Bloody hell choc biscuit! That's a bit 'anyone who disagrees with me is WRONG!' isn't it?

I have two boys. They are amazing. I am incredibly fucking lucky to have them. I have no regrets, no desire to conjure up anymore kids. Because it really didn't matter to me that I didn't have a girl (I had never even thought of it tbh.)

We had a hard time conceiving ds2. We are so lucky he is here. My heart fills up at all we have...especially as I know that friends of mine are still trying.

Now I'm not saying that it's wrong to yearn for a child of a specific sex. Just because I haven't been there doesn't mean it's not valid! BUT you can't say that people who don't feel like this 'aren't being completely honest'!!!

Exactly picnicbasketcase-if there had been a possibility that I would have been disappointed if no.3 was a third boy then I wouldn't have had a third.

i dont understand being 'disappointed' at the birth of a baby, when we had ds3 and then ds4 a particular family member commented on being 'disappointed' they werent girls! good job they were on the end of the phone or they may have got a slap! i was and still am just in awe of the whole process tbh, it IS such a miracle and a blessing, i am not religious but i do really think children are a blessing and a gift, they are not ours to own but to love and care for, and to help grow into responsible adults. they are not an extention of us or our wants, but their own people.

Got to wonder, I'm assuming that even with PGD it isn't 100% reliable, in which case what would you do if (after all the hassle) you still ended up with the sex you didn't want?

I have had miscarriages and lost two stillborn DDs. I am very lucky to also have my 5 living DC; 2 DDs, 3DSs. After difficult births and losses I think people should be grateful to have a child at all. It really use to annoy me listening to friends with boys go on about they are fed up with boys and desperate for girls. In my experience boys are every bit as nice as girls and you can have as much fun with boys clothes and toys etc! I had as much attention with my boys as I did with my girls so disagree that people only celebrate girls. I had 3 DDs first (lost 3rd one) but was very happy when we found out it was a 3rd DD. I never really had a desire for boys as had enjoyed my girls so much and have no boys in the family. But once - found out was having boys was so excited. And when I realised they were as fab as DDs was happy to have more of them! If I have anymore would be happy with either!

to actually give birth and then say 'I wanted the other sex' is greedy and selfish

Yep. Having a baby is a miracle, IMO the most fundamental miracle of life the universe and everything (I'm not religious), the fact you can actually create a whole person! How could anyone say that miracle isn't enough?

I understand you may be curious how having the other sex would affect your family/parenting and that may be a reason to prefer the other sex. However, it is a completely different matter to think it should be acceptable to manipulate the sex of the baby for those reasons. The consequences on a society level could be very undesirable if sex manipulation were allowed.

If you really feel strongly that you do not want another boy you probably should not have another baby. The pressure on the girl to live up to your expectations! She may be completely different to what you think she will contribute to your family (like "balancing" ?). Or the poor boy who was not wanted...

I have dcs of both sex.

When I found out for each of them at the 20 week scan, I felt very sad, disappointed and cried for a few days. I was letting go of the possibility of the other sex and for some reason, I got really upset each time. Regardless of which sex!

I don't think that makes me spoiled or not appreciate my dcs at all.

I think people do have expectations and dreams of what their family will look like and some find that very hard to let go.

Likewise, I think people also have expectations of what a boy or a girl will be like. That too is normal, just like having an expectation of what having a baby is like. I think for the majority, they very quickly realise that the reality very rarely measures up to the stereotype. We are all naive I this respect.

I'm not sure it's something necessarily to condemn people for unless they actively make a child of the 'wrong' gender feel inadequate.

I certainly do not believe that if PGD were legal in this country, we would have the same skewed population as China or India. There the sex preference is centuries old and very much ingrained in the culture. Comparing the UK to that is hysterical, IMO.

Think there would be more of a balance in the west.

Judging by MN there wouldn't be a balance-there would be too many girls.

I think people do have expectations and dreams of what their family will look like and some find that very hard to let go

This is a dream they should curb at the start.
It then leads on to the fact they want their DC to play a musical instrument, they want them to be a first class tennis player, they want them to go to a top university etc.
Wait and see what you get and support and foster what they want to do-take piano lessons yourself, learn to play tennis and it is never too late to go to university or OP-don't expect them to do it for you. Maybe they are tone deaf, hopeless at sport and want to leave school at 16yrs and be a hairdresser.

The odds are 50/50 and you know this when you start. I have 3 boys and I still have exactly the 50/50 chance if I had a 4th. I might hope for a girl but I have 9months to get used to the fact that is is equally likely to be a boy. The answer is not to bother if you don't want another boy.

I agree with fuzzpig-I think that bringing another human into the world is a miracle-a wonderful thing-I can't imagine then saying 'that miracle wasn't good enough-it was the 'wrong' sex! There are lots of fairy stories along the lines of 'be careful what you wish for.......'

You need to respond to the DC that you have and not the mythical one of your imagination.

The other thing to bear in mind is that every child has two parents and those parents have families and friends. Can you imagine the stress and pressure if they all started pitching in about what sex the child should be? I think it is a bit foolish to imagine that the choice would be entirely free, or that the 'West'/developed world is free of prejudices. Plus if you think that parents get grief now for having the families they have now, just think how much worse it would be if everyone thought that the outcome could be controlled.

I would rather it was legal, I really didn't want a daughter because I though how could I raise a daughter as I know nothing about Girly things.

However my dd is just like me :) so no needed to worry

A healthy child is obviously the most important thing. However a quiet preference for a certain sex doesn't make you evil. I always wanted a girl, I am thrilled I have DD as I knew there would be no more attempts.

My Mother was very vocal about wanting boys, she had 3 girls. That was horrible to hear all my life. The difference being she actually told us her preference.

I enjoy mulling over what would happen if sex selection became legal & culturally acceptable.

An awful lot of random choice & unplanned pregnancies would still happen.
IVF is expensive & unpleasant, most babies would not be gender selected.

In most (vast majority) of the world boys would still be very heavily favoured.
In Britain girls would be preferred. Mixed but probably net girl bias in rest of OECD countries.
Late term abortions for sex-selection reasons would still happen (random or unplanned pregnancies, folk who couldn't do IVF). But probably a lot less often.

I think the boy:girl ratios would climb to about 140-150:100 in the most boy-favouring societies. In Uk would be boy:girl of maybe 100:115-120, not so marked imbalance.

All those surplus boys would struggle to get wives; this is already a big issue in China. Would world population actually fall? Would the social status of women increase worldwide? Would western preferred girls have to turn to the best of undeveloped world men to find a partner? Would homosexuality become better tolerated worldwide? Would girls become even more sheltered & mollycoddled & put upon to uphold family honour in the least sophisticated countries? Would incidents of rape increase? Would quality of maternal care increase due to the knowledge women were carrying boys?

Yes Ghoulia l agree. I will never forget my mum stopping her friend in the street to 'commiserate' with her about her latest (of five) DGSs that her DD had just given birth to.

Her DD (my mums friends that is) had lost a baby girl , her second child to cot death and had been trying ever since to have another little girl. Kept saying I'll just have one more to try for a girl but kept having boys. She had only originally wanted two DCs but ended up having seven ( her last one was eventually a girl )

I will never forget because this woman was holding one of her DGSs hands (about five years old) while she and my mother very loudly and vocally bemoaned the arrival of yet another boy. His little face - he just looked so bewildered looking up at his DGM and listening to all this. I was only about eleven but l remember even at that age thinking that was so wrong but couldnt quite work out why at that age.

Just to say in the womans defence and that of her family l think it was more ignorance than anything and the boys always seemed loved and cared for but l wonder what damage that might have done to them knowing they were all 'failed attempts' to have a girl. Also tbf l have never been in the awful unimaginable position of losing a baby girl to cot death and l imagine that was their way of making it bearable - looking forward to once again having a little girl in the family.

But l still have always remembered that little boys face.

fullofregrets I think that you are so wrong.

And actually when I hear people say 'typical boy' I always think of that as a positive or even an excuse for boisterous behaviour.

bonkersLFDT20 and MrsDevere I also know lots of Indian families with first born DDs (myself included).

That's why I find worras comments about knowing hundreds of Indian families, none with a first-born daughter very dubious, and a deeply insulting statement to make.

I agree there is an unbalanced desire for sons in the Indian community, but I have never seen this practiced in the form of aborting female babies in the UK (assuming worra here too).

YANBU, I have two boys and both times I have wanted a girl. But the fact that they are boys doesn't in anyway diminish my love for them, and I wouldn't change them for anything, even if I could go back and choose a girl. But I do still want a girl and would sign up for gender selection in a heartbeat if it was financially viable.

really tittytitty you would sign up for gender selction, do you know what the process involves? how invasive it is, how much of a strain the egg collection process is and then the ivf, you would put yourself and your family through that? and then the chances are it may not work, i think generally ivf has about a 30% chance of working.

so you would happily inject yourself daily for a few weeks to stimulate your ovaries to produce extra eggs (this carries risk of hyper stimulation a side effect of which can be death) Then you need to be scanned a few times a week (at least) these are internal scans, not painful but not exactly dignified, legs up in stirrups etc during this process to check how your follicles are growing and blood tests at each scan to check on medication levels and adjust as necessary. then you would have to undergo a general anasthetic to remove the eggs.

then after all that they would see which eggs look viable, introduce the sperm and incubate to see which ones fertilise, then those embryos have to be graded to see which if any are likely to implant, and THEN you want to select from those embryos on the basis of gender? and only implant the female ones, and hope you get pregnant, which is far from guaranteed and once you are pregnant, statistically ivf pregnancies are more likely to end up in miscarriage or have other complications or the baby is also statistically more likely to have abnormalities.

so you would put yourself through that just to try and have a girl?! why not be grateful for the fact that you can have a baby the regular way? and be happy with what you have?!

5madthings, if i had the money, then yes i probably would put myself through that.

well i think you would be mad to do so, i just donated eggs to help a couple going through ivf and for me it all went fine, very straightforward, no complications, that isnt always the case and despite that it was a big ask of me and my family, hospital appointments, scans, blood tests, having to have a general which is a risk etc and i didnt have the worry of then hoping the eggs fertilise and then that they will implant and result in a pregnancy. i have 5 of my own, the regular way and thankfully very easily and without complication, i woudl never put myself through that to get a baby of a specific gender, if i couldtn have a baby any other way yes possibly.

so if it didnt work, you spent all that money and it actualy made you ill, or heaven forbid you died, you think that is a risk worth taking? to deprive yoru sons of a mother? and what if it works but you lose the baby? you would put yourself and your children through that? and what message will that send to your sons, that you are so desperate for a girl that you would do that rather than just give them a sibling of either sex the regular way?

vanimal I can't answer for worra but I would say that she is not normally known for malicious exaggeration. Nor can I say that you're lying but what this shows is that it is a hugely emotive and subjective subject.

I would also repeat the statement that I made upthread

quickhide yes it's true. It was true when I lived in a large city in the W Midlands. They wouldn't tell you the sex of the baby unless you were paying for a private scan. And yes, I know several people who had late terminations because the babies were girls.

They were quite open about it. It was desperately sad. One of them aborted several girls, fell pregnant with a boy and the whole family was delighted. Unfortunately she lost the boy as he had major abnormalities at around the age the girls had been aborted. I'm not saying that's divine retribution or anything silly like that, but it was poignantly ironic (something of an understatement) to see the mass mourning which accompanied the loss of that boy as opposed to the relief which accompanied the abortion of the girls.

Buttonmoon78 that's horrific :(

I live in the W Mids too, and am currently pg, and am Asian. At each of my 3 pregnancies the radiographers have asked if I wanted to know the sex of my baby, I declined each time.

But I do know of hospitals in the area that will not tell you the sex of your baby, regardless of your ethnicity.

I was bought up in a predominantly Asian area and can honestly say I have never, ever come across anyone having an abortion based on the sex of their baby.

I am not accusing you of lying, I am just very, very sad that this is exists, in this country, in this day and age.

I know if I, or anyone I knew aborted on the basis of sex and was open about it, I would lose all friends and family in an instant, it is absolutely disgusting that this goes on in the UK. Makes me sad to be Indian and associated in any way with the practice.

:(

It was horribly sad. I was good friends with this woman's SiL and she was devastated. She was delighted when her DH backed her refusal to find out when she was pregnant.

His rationale? 'When this baby comes I'll be delighted it's a healthy baby whatever it is. If I find out it's a girl then my family have time to convince me I'm disappointed.'

Said baby was a (2nd) girl and my friend and her husband were delighted but went through a tough time with relatives commiserating with them. She had a boy several years later and finally felt accepted by her dh's family.

When I had my two eldest 20 and 18 years ago they would not tell anyone the sex. It was generally accepted this was because they didn't want to tell Asian parents so they didn't tell anyone.
However, looking back I have absolutely no proof that this was the case.
It might just have been down to scans being less accurate then.

Unfortunately I think there will always be people who do it. I am not convinced it is widespread but I don't work in that field. Is there any research I wonder?