AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

But what if a child dies from something else they could have spent the 1000 on? A lot of the time it may not even be obvious - does that make it less important?

Hmm I'm not sure how a phonics scheme can save lives, which I believe was the alternative.I do take your point, but I just wouldn't want to be the one driving a stake into the ground saying no to a dfib which the PTA have raised money for, and then the next week somebody drops dead who could have been saved!

oopsi

Are you going to buy a defib for your house?

if the GB veto this idea and then a child or adult in school dies who might have been saved, could you live with yourself?

Look, if you take on any responsibility for policy, whether it's the PTA or the PM, you have to accept that you cannot mitigate all risk. What is important is that you understand the risks you are taking and the likely cost-benefit of any decision. The cost of a defib (plus training etc) is high, the benefit is v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v. likely to be zero. As those of us who are HCPs keep saying, defibrillation doesn't work for most cardiac arrests (remember that 7% survival rate for out-of-hospital cardiac arrests?) and it almost never works for children. Even children with congenital heart disease do not usually go into VF/VT which is the only type of cardiac arrest that responds to defibrillation.

As an expert in resuscitation, I would be absolutely furious if my child's school wasted money that could have been spent on education on a defibrillator.

oopsi, it's not between phonics schemes or defibrillators. But yes, I place quite a high value on reading.
Are you saying you have considered all the other uses of £1k and concluded that a defibrillator will save the most children's lives?

No but I think that as the PTA have raised the money, it's up to them to decide what it's spent on

'Are you going to buy a defib for your house?'
well i live in a hamlet which has a community defib and first responder team of which i am a member.

...only if the PTA also agrees to fund the ongoing maintenance and any training required (including cover) - unless it is something the school also wants.

Hmm I'm not sure how a phonics scheme can save lives

All doctors, nurses, radiographers, technicians, OPDs, physios, etc etc - they all have to be able to read. If one shild from your school becomes any of the above then your money has saved more lives than a defib.

Stealth, sorry hadn't checked back.

I agree with gasman entirely. In 21 years of being a paramedic none of the children I have attended who sadly needed resuscitating have been in a shockable rhythm. Good CPR training with regular updates would be far far more beneficial.

I don't quite agree with the safety concerns- it is very difficult to make a mistake with the new AEDs I have seen that are in public settings, they do everything for you and say it out loud too- including warning verbally and by alarm a number of times before the shock is delivered. But I guess in the heat of the moment anything is possible; like gasman says though, I don't think this should be a reason not to place one.

I really wanted to sit on the fence with this one as having been at the scene amongst the terrible bewilderment and pain, I understand what an incredibly emotive subject it is, but if pushed I would have to say there are alternatives (regularly updated training) which have more value.

Thanks Rene

Just to update really....

I attended a meeting yesterday with a representative from SADS UK, who will likely be supplying the defibrillator. They were very good and thorough and bought a defib machine with them. They explained exactly how it worked and were happy to provide a demo.

I was happy to be wired up to the machine, they convinced me it wouldn't deliver a shock unless i needed one - and they were right!!!!
It didn't shock me!!

Following the demo, and now knowing first hand how easy the AED is to use I am a complete convert and I'm pleased to say that we will be investing in a defibrillator for the school ASAP. We will be having adult and paediatric pads so the AED will be available for anyone who may need it. It will also be available to the rest of the community and during holidays and out of school hours, a keyholder will be identified who will be able to access the AED if required.

I was honest about my concerns in the meeting, and I did as I said I would and printed this thread out so I could ask any questions. (No one raised any concerns re confidentiality!!) My questions were answered, my concerns were put to rest!

Thank you ALL for your input, and I'm happy to say yes I Was Being Unreasonable!!

1st aiders (i am one)are taught to use them , 1st aiders DO NOT administer medical treatment they simply "buy" you those valuable minutes!!! everyone should do at least the one day course , believe me please, it matters, or , what if no defib , no quick response ambulance? ok you may feel bad for a while but , you will eventually forget , person (kid?) who died cannot.

It would be on a wall outside and used by jo public aswell. They are put in a metal box with a codepad. If you ring 999 the operators know the location and code for each defib machine.

IMHO its better to have one than not.

That's the conclusion we've come to Caramel.

I'm glad it will be available for the whole community too.

Well said Mrs De Vere.

I am in awe of the parents who campaign and fundraise, partly because of the energy and drive it must take but also because of the public scrutiny it opens them up to.

Ummm, this thread is over 3 years old - I doubt there's a school in the country that doesn't have interactive whiteboards in every classroom now. And probably not many schools that don't have a defib either. So it's a bit of a defunct argument to bring back up.

Yabvvvu.
Most support staff and many teachers have first aid training. This includes training on use of a defibrillator.
In any event, a defibrillator is very easy to operate and comes with foolproof instructions.
Defibrillator s save lives. Just because as ambulance station is 5 minutes away, it doesn't mean on each will be available when you need it, and even within the 5 minutes, the victim could die. This is not just for the benefit of the children , its for staff and adults too. Its a very simple comparatively inexpensive piece of equipment which saves lives. I cannot see why you would consider an IWB more important.
I also wonder why, as a governor, you feel your wishes outweigh the collective decision of the PTA to spend their own money on equipment they seem vital.

Just seen your update - excellent news, well done!

Just seen your update

From 3 years ago!!

defibhelp

Any reason why you've bumped a thread that's THREE AND A HALF YEARS OLD?

Ffs, why do people do this? And why are threads not locked after a certain amount of time?

Hello. For some reason this flagged into my inbox as a current thread, hence the reply! However, this is still a recurring theme, not helped by the DoE paper last July, which gives inaccurate information.

Ybvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvu. How do you know its a slim chance. Are you a Doctor or a psychic rather! Also slim does not mean impossible.
Re Ambulance station. Those very very very crucial 5 minutes could prove fatal
I do agree with you though that the parents should be notified . I can't argue with that
But for the record. If it were my child. I would be relieved at who ever was savi g their life, but I do agree that only staff who are fully trained and confident in administering the defibrillator should do so.
Ydnbu though on saying you'd want a demo from the company, though. Would they not do that automatically.
I think every school and work place should be fitted with one of these.

.

RTFT before piling in after 25 pages to tell the OP that they're "Ybvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvu", a fact they agreed with 3 fucking years ago!