To be confused by the facts surrounding what is is to be British, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or 'from the UK'.

[owlelf]

Apologies in advance to anyone upset my ignorance but I am genuinely confused by the what is the most correct and least offensive way to explain how Britain and the UK are comprised, what the correct nationalities are and how the various flags should be used to represent us?

Am I correct in thinking Britain = England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales and The United Kingdom = England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

I would describe myself as British, living in the UK and the flag I most identify with is the Union Jack. However, I'm only just beginning to realise that the term 'British' is not a way that many people in some parts Britain would like to describe themselves, and I now realise that loads of people in Scotland don't identify with the Union Jack.

Ds was asking me recently what 'our' flag was. I told him it was the Union Jack, but his grandpa has confused the issue by insisting that our flag is the St George's Cross.

Sporting events seem to muddy the water further- sometimes we compete separately as England Ireland Scotland and Northern Ireland, at other times we compete all together as the UK.

AIBU to be confused??

I feel both British and English, but more English than British.

I'm with DogEared. I am definitely Welsh, not British - I'm not even sure what that is. THis does not mean I hate the English, Scottish or Irish. I feel more affinity with other celtic/pictish nations, but I married an Englishman (OK, I divorced him too, but that was a non-nationality related incident).
I get really annoyed when people (usually English) confuse the terms 'English' and 'British', and when commentators at, say, the Olympics, call an athlete Enlgish if they are, but British if they are Welsh, Scottish or from Northern Ireland.
The Union was forced, and outlawed some fundamental parts of culture. THat does still rankle, but it's a long time ago now and if we were treated as a real culture/country within the Union I think we could all get on.

I'm glad I read through the thread to the end as somebloke123 made an excellent point that has always puzzled me and I was going to comment on, The famous pentathlete, Mary Peters won an Olympic medal for GB - yet she was from Northern Ireland.

Why not UK. It is easy enough to remember if you say it in full - the United Kingdom of GB and NI

As for myself, I know that I am officially British in terms of nationality on forms, passport, etc, etc and I would tick that box, but I have never in my life referred to myself as British. I'm a Scot.

I also remember being at a charity quiz and there was a lot of arguing about one of the answers. What is the longest river in the British Isles - answer was the Shannon - not in Britain, but in the British Isles, Cue lots of boozed up people arguing with the questionmaster as they had put the Severn

cardibach, I don't think I agree with you about the athlete thing. I think it's the other way round actually. How many people into sport don't know that Chris Hoy is Scottish and Colin Jackson Welsh - he was often called the Welsh Wizard wasn't he? And that Dai Greene is Welsh (well, with a name like Dai....). English athletes are simply called Brits.

The flag thing pisses me off a lot though - the dragon should be somewhere on the Union Flag. There were sound political reasons for leaving it off though, utter bollocks though they were.

AmIthatbad - excellent point about Mary Peters. It should be team UK if we are competing as one nation.

Channel Islanders have a British Islands Passport. They are not part of the UK but they are part of the British Isles. Whilst the Queen is the Head of State, they have their own governments and are not controlled by the UK government.

Not sure about the Isle of Man though. I would assume it would be the same as they have their own government.

I was once told that thoe from the republic of Ireland find 'Eire' offensive. Is this true? i was born in England, raised in Ireland then moved to Wales. I consider myself Welsh.

Yes, it's spectacularly ignorant. I'm very surprised that you were raised in Ireland and didn't notice that Irish people don't refer to Ireland as "Eire" when speaking English.

"Yes, it's spectacularly ignorant. I'm very surprised that you were raised in Ireland and didn't notice that Irish people don't refer to Ireland as "Eire" when speaking English" I was 5 when I left, I don't really remember much about Irish people.

I'm a proper mix of nationality and ethnicity but, as a daughter of a rugby family, would refer to myself as Scottish. My flag is the Saltire, but I am proud to carry a British passport, and would hate for Scotland to become independant. I generally support England at football world cups as Scotland never qualify, but become unnaturally enraged when people refer to £ sterling as 'English money' - it's British!!
Oh dear. I need to go bed now. I've had 3 glasses of wine, and it's all gone wrong....

The UK is a work of fiction. No-one considers themselves as being of "UK nationality". Britain is, at best, a geographical term. I think the UK should seperate. Wales can be part of England if they don't think they can go it alone. Scotland should be an entirely seperate country with a manned border and it's own armed forces etc. Northern Ireland can either unite with the ROI or become a seperate country.

*I don't think it's confusing, it's just that it doesn't seem to have been made that clear to many people in school/growing up/etc.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain is made up of Wales, England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.*

If you look at your passport it says "United Kigdom of Great Britain AND NI" - NI is british but is not part of Great Britian but is part of the UK.

I can't believe anyone can be so ignorant as to think that Ireland is part of Britain or the UK. I know the standard of education isn't great in England, but really!

I was 5 when I left, I don't really remember much about Irish people.

Oh right. OK. When you said you were raised in Ireland, I thought you meant you'd lived here till at least your teens.

Yes, Irish people find it ignorant when people speaking English refer to Ireland as "Eire", which is the name for Ireland when speaking Irish. It'd be like calling Germany "Deutschland" when speaking English - an odd thing to do. Further, there's a tradition of using the term "Eire" to refer to Ireland in the anti-Irish press such as the Daily Mail, so it's quite pointed. The next time you see it, look at what the person who refers to Ireland is saying and you'll often note a heavily patronising slant to their views.

The other problem with it is that Irish is a very heavily inflected language, so words like "Eire" tend to change depending on the context. For example, the phrase "in Eire" makes no sense, in the Irish language, the word "Eire" becomes "Eireann" in that context. Now, you wouldn't expect someone with no knowledge of the language to know that, but it still sounds very strange.

I do still have ties to Ireland and I think it was my dad's girlfriend who told me about the Eire thing (She is Irish) so I was surprised that so many people had used the term in the thread really. Was just checking that I was correct.

I do know to call Derry, Derry rather than LondonDerry.

threeprinces said:

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Interesting that nobody seems to have talked about the difference between Britain and Great Britain.

Britain = England & Wales
Great Britain = England, Wales & Scotland
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Actually I talked about it above !

Don't think you're right about Britain. Scotland is definitely included in it. I would also say NI as it's part of the UK and people there are entitled t a British passport. So I would say Britain = GB + NI

Dueling

Yes Derry/Londonderry is a tricky one. As far as I can see the locals almost always refer to it as Derry, whatever side of the Union issue they are on, though I think it some senses Londonderry is more formally correct - certainly County Londonderry.

Yes Eire - I have never heard an Irish person call it that. It would be a bit like an english speaker referring to Munchen or Mehico.

ApocalyseThen

Yes there does seem to be a habit of pronouncing something in a foreign language or accent in order to be hostile or pointed.

I remember when the then MP Michael Portillo was competing to be the Tory candidate for a particular constituency. One of his opponents in the local constituency association insisted on referring to him as "Miguel Porteeeyo" ...

But why the hatred of being called British? They are British Scottish. And our ancestors would have been British before Scotland or England existed as nations. There is a lot of anger (quite rightly) if British is only used in the context to mean English so why not try and reclaim ownership of the word in its correct usage?

A manned border between Scotland and England? Why on earth?

If it was just to assert difference and Scottishness, then it's the mostl pointless idea ever, given that you can freely drive over the German border in the Netherlands and God knows how many other counties.

Here goes explaining about Ireland. Be prepared to be confused...

No no one in Ireland ever uses 'Eire', although it is on our stamps. I just find it odd and antiquated rather than offensive. I do however find it weird when English people ask me if I'm from 'southern Ireland', because to me that means Cork. I don't know why the words 'Irish Republic' are so hard (especially given that the most northerly point on the whole island is actually in 'southern' Ireland ). Non-unionist Irish people aren't terribly hot on the term 'British Isles' either and it isn't really used in the Republic. The division between Northern Ireland and the rest of the country is a bit confusing too. We're one team for some sports like rugby, and two teams for others like soccer. There are also some major cross-border institutions that pre-date the partition of the island in 1922 i.e. pretty much all the churches, including the Protestant ones, are all-Ireland, and there are both Anglican and Catholic dioceses straddling the border. In fact even the Orange Order is a cross-border institution and has some Orange lodges in the Republic (there is a big and completely uncontentious Orange parade in Co. Donegal every year). And to confuse matters further 'Ulster' is sometimes inaccurately used synonymously with 'Northern Ireland', even though three counties of it are actually in the Republic. Technically Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but is not part of Britain, which is England, Scotland and Wales. The Irish Republic is obviously in neither, having seceded from the UK in 1922, but we have a very long-standing deal with the UK whereby each country treats the other's citizens pretty much as its own.

Hope that makes sense .

And Ireland became a republic in 1949 after having been a free state from 1922.

I don't know if someone has pointed this out, but while

UK = England, Scotland, Wales, and NI
GB = England, Scotland and Wales

what makes it confusing is that British is someone from the UK, and in normal terms Britain = UK, in the same way that America = USA (even if not technically correct)

Just to be a bit controversial, I find the whole subnations in the UK a bit silly - england, wales, etc is just a bit daft

And to confuse matters further...some Irish people don't recognise the North as Northern Ireland-part-of-the-UK, but as the North of Ireland, and six counties of the Republic that really ought to be given back. Ooh, it all gets a bit political.

I have never once told anyone I am 'British'. I always say 'English'. In fact, mainly, I just identify as a Londoner.

"maybe national identity is what you feel, nationality is what's on your passport."

Absolutely. My nationality is British because that's my passport, but my national identity is Welsh. If there were a Welsh or European passport I would take it like a shot - I feel my passport is very much only a functional piece of paper.

We live in Germany, where most people have even less of a concept about Scotland/Ireland/Wales than the OP . It means I have to explain about being Welsh a lot, and that that is a sort of half-independent country within the UK. Most annoyingly, Germans take 'England' and 'English' as a synonym for British, but also for anyone who speaks English and isn't American. DH is Irish (as in Republic of) but his boss always greets him with 'hier kommt der Engländer' (here comes the Englishman), and DH has to seethe in silence.

One thing that makes us all more reluctant to see British as 'our' nationality is that, although both DC have a British passport, their own children will not be entitled to one (a rule introduced in the 1990s, I believe). I feel if the British are making it so clear they don't really want us, we can do without them as well. Sad, really.

I just don't get what the whole english / scottish / welsh thing is about. Apart from a few made up stories, we basically share the same history. We're just a rag tag of mixed up people. I reckon you'd struggle to find someone that was 100% welsh or english, or whatever. British makes far more sense than being english or scottish, and is a far more inclusive nationality