to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

And the government an elite businessmen are often one and the same and therefore run both in order to favour themselves.

Small businesses will be destroyed by the current system as much as the public sector will. The private sector is not interested in helping small businesses, they are trying to run them out of town.

Not really, Offred as tbh, I don't think you have much of a clue.

Probably cos you're reading things into what I've said instead of reading what I've written.

No. I just think you are wrong and disagree fundamentally with what you say and that your logic is full of holes and not related to the topic. I just think anyone who starts out with the 'bankers and businesses ruining the world' line should think about the role they also play in that. Everyone is trying to abdicate their responsibility and pin it on everyone else. Its time everyone started to look at how and where they spend their money, if they have a problem with certain companies. Equally, they should look at how they appear to others when they start complaining about how hard they have it, and expect sympathy when they have a free choice. Indeed far more choice and opportunities than the average person.

Offred

Surely if the pension funds that are not self sustaining are pulling others down, it should be the terms and conditions of those that are changed?

"Illegal tax evasion year on year has been more than budget deficit for a long time."

Gollygosh, Offred, I'm surprised that you know that so much illegal tax evasion has been going on. How did you find out about all this illegal tax evasion? Have you considered sharing your insights with HMRC and the Fraud Squad? I think you owe it to society to report these fraudsters.

One other thing that struck me about your illogical and irrational posts, Offred, is who do you think pays for the public sector? I mean who do you think actually pays for all this? Are we not entitled as taxpayers to jib at the prospect of a whole class of professionals getting 3x the average wage in retirement? When we're the poor sods footing the bill?

Oh dear. I agree with whoever said that this was a thread they wish they had never started to read.
It is obviously massively unfair that doctors should be paid more than other people who work just as hard day in day out. And it obviously follows that doctors should not be entitled to higher pensions than other workers and should accept that they should pay more and for longer because they earn more than other workers who work just as hard.
Just out of interest, how do you quantify how hard a person works and therefore how much they should earn?
The way forward is clearly to pay everyone the same, irrespective of what they do, and everyone should share what they have with everyone else for the general good. Oh wait a minute - didn't someone try that once already? I believe it was called communism and I may be wrong but I don't think it worked out that well....
For those who work hard and feel unappreciated and unrewarded and feel that doctors are paid too much for doing too little, well you may be right. But you shouldn't put up with it- you should go to medical school and become doctors yourself and then you too can earn too much, work too little, have ridiculous pensions, send all your children to private school and own two houses and drink bollinger and pimms in between golfing. It really is that easy.
I realise that many may reply to this post and so I apologise in advance if it takes me a few days to reply. This is not because I am on holiday/having a facial/sorting out "the help"/lunching with friends, but because I will be working 12 hour shifts (that are never 12 hours), juggling housework/childcare/professional exams. And yes, I knew what I was getting into - well I thought I did. And I can't afford to leave "on principle" as suggested by some, as I have massive student debts to repay as well as the usual mortgages and bills. I'm not saying that doctors are more entitled than any other workers - far from it- but am horrified at this vitriol against doctors. Isn't this what the government want- didvide and rule?
I joined mumsnet to talk about parenting stuff and about babies and children of differing ages and the joys/problems they can bring. I did not sign up for doctor bashing, sorry. So over and out from me.

Solopower

Flatpack - no private sector workers are not being expected to save for public sector workers' retirement. They're simply being asked to pay their taxes.

When a pension 'pot' is created, the employee puts money in, and so does the employer. Who is the employer of the public sector? The government. Where does the government get the money from to put in to the public sector pension? The taxpayer.

So private sector workers are being expected to pay for public sector workers' retirement.

And we aren't asked to pay our taxes. We're ordered to and threatened with jail if we don't.

oldwomanwholivesinashoe

Oh dear. I agree with whoever said that this was a thread they wish they had never started to read.

You may have read it but you certainly didn't understand it. And that's the problem here - the gulf of understanding between public and private is so colossal that I don't know if it can ever be closed. The public sector just expects the private sector to keep on ponying up the pennies, and there's a wailing and gnashing of teeth if it doesn't.

Part of the issue here is the gigantic and colossal mess that is the pension situation, for both private and public sector workers, that successive governments have signally failed to address.

TBH, it doesn't help that doctors come on here saying but we work so very hard. Which I am sure is true. I work hard too. It doesn't give me the automatic right to a gold-plated pension fund though.

What would progress the debate is understanding why doctors should be immune to cuts. There might be a logical reason for this somewhere that escapes me. I doubt it though. My pension has been cut and cut and cut. Gordon Brown did the most damage to it. My pay has been frozen for years. So, ahem, why should doctors be immune from this?

Hopefullyrecovering

Part of the issue here is the gigantic and colossal mess that is the pension situation, for both private and public sector workers, that successive governments have signally failed to address.

Completely agree. The problem was exacerbated by Labour's massive overspending and its failure to grip the problem sooner, but it dates back to the early 1990s, and at no point has any government been prepared to make the changes needed.

TBH, it doesn't help that doctors come on here saying but we work so very hard. Which I am sure is true. I work hard too. It doesn't give me the automatic right to a gold-plated pension fund though.

This is partly the point of my post above. Doctors do work hard and they do an important job. But you work hard, and so do I. And it's the failure of public sector workers to recognise the importance of the private sector, while at the same time expecting the private sector to recognise the importance of the public sector, which is the part of the problem here.

What would progress the debate is understanding why doctors should be immune to cuts. There might be a logical reason for this somewhere that escapes me. I doubt it though. My pension has been cut and cut and cut. Gordon Brown did the most damage to it. My pay has been frozen for years. So, ahem, why should doctors be immune from this?

I've seen at first hand the damage that the entitlement complex of certain unions has done. IT workers in the public sector earned less, in real terms, almost every year under Labour while those in glamorous professions such as teaching and healthcare had fat pay rises. Starting salaries in IT in 2000 were about 13k. They're now about 16k. But IT staff don't have powerful unions behind them.

My first ever goes to this OP. The thread may have moved on meanwhile.

I would hardly call teaching and health care glamerous.

the strange thing about IT is that you can earn a huge amount more in the private sector. So much more infact that the big companies have outsourced much of the simpler tasks out to other countries.

So Its amusing that flatpack goes on about greed whne the IT sector has been destroyed by it.

OK flatpack I give in. Let's just give up on the NHS and privatise everything. Then we can all choose what we wish to pay for and when.
Obviously that's ridiculous but so is most of the hyperbole about the pension issue.
Let's just agree to disagree.
But if doctors are such an elitist group with special benefits and high salaries then why aren't more people falling over themselves to get into medical school?
The people who are affected by the pensions issue know why it is an issue. Most other people seem to have gotten their information from the Daily Fail. Thank you to those who do support the strike and I personally would never put a patient at risk for the sake of any political issue. And all doctors I know feel the same. But I am looking into job applications in New Zealand and thanks to some of the posters here, I feel less guilty about leaving the NHS. After all there are apparently thousands of potential med students just waiting for us all to ship out.
There is so much more to say about this but this could go on forever. Just because one side is right doesn't automatically make the other side wrong.
And I am from a very working class family and paid my way through med school with several jobs so very much appreciate the work involved in other jobs and the rubbish pay associated with it.

Don't go, Oldwoman. Why is New Zealand getting all our doctors? We need you here!

Hmmm! Loving the comparison between IT workers and doctors. My cousin earn 125k a year in IT, My Dh earns 72k as a consultant surgeon. Out of this he has to pay indemnity insurance, any training, registration and lots of other little bits. I know people get the impression that all doctors are GPs and work very little and earn over 100k but that is not the case. Another point that has been niggling away at me whilst reading this thread is that like the private sector, the NHS has had a pay freeze for a number of years. Many people seem to be unaware of this so just pointing it out.

He could earn more if he set up a private practise but start up fees would be 20k for insurance before he's even paid out for rooms, support staff etc... He currently works an average of 12 hour day plus 1 weekend in 4 so any private work would have to be done outside of this time, so the little time we have as a family would become non-existent. (I don't include answering emails, preparing presnetations/teaching and all the extra paperwork in this working day either - this is just stuff he does in the evening).

tbh, I keep feeling like doctors on here really don't get it.

The vast majority of non-doctor posters are not saying doctors should be paid less.

Most also support doctors fighting for their pensions.

What I - and a lot of other people - are getting narked about is the whole 'I do 13-hour shifts, I take paperwork home in the evening, I spent 8 years at university' malarkey.

Seriously, do you think doing almost any competitive professional job would be different? Do you imagine that if you were a barrister, a senior detective, or a newspaper editor you would work 9-5?

You absolutely deserve high salaries and respect. But you might also think about the fact that lots of other people also do long-hours, difficult, highly skilled jobs. And actually, stress generally comes from being in low-status jobs, not high.

I often feel like doctors really don't value other people's time, and that is coming through very strongly here. The last time I was in hospital the doctor said to me, 'You can wait, can't you, you're not doing anything else today.' I really don't think most of the doctors posting on here have a clue what it's like to be a policeman, or a city trader, or any other job which involves long hours and big responsibilities.

Bizarre thread against doctors' right to strike just because they get paid well for long hours and cleverness when parallel threads are about support for those born into privilege who do little for their and our money.

oldwomanwholivesinashoe

^OK flatpack I give in. Let's just give up on the NHS and privatise everything. Then we can all choose what we wish to pay for and when.
Obviously that's ridiculous but so is most of the hyperbole about the pension issue.
Let's just agree to disagree.^

Well, fine. Let's. And when you wonder why nobody sees it your way, perhaps you'll think back to this discussion and consider that you might've learned something - something that these mere proles could have taught you.

But if doctors are such an elitist group with special benefits and high salaries then why aren't more people falling over themselves to get into medical school?

Are medical schools undersubscribed? That wasn't the impression that I had.

The people who are affected by the pensions issue know why it is an issue. Most other people seem to have gotten their information from the Daily Fail.

Well, of course. People who see it your way are clever and educated and the rest of the lumpenproletariat are so ignorant that all they do is react to whatever the headline du jour is. Are you this condescending to your patients? Do you treat them all like this?

Thank you to those who do support the strike and I personally would never put a patient at risk for the sake of any political issue. And all doctors I know feel the same. But I am looking into job applications in New Zealand and thanks to some of the posters here, I feel less guilty about leaving the NHS. After all there are apparently thousands of potential med students just waiting for us all to ship out.

I find it hard to believe, judging by your astonishing immaturity, that you've been let anywhere near a stethoscope.

BoneyBackJefferson

I would hardly call teaching and health care glamerous.

They must be - else why the 'schools and hospitals' refrain that has deafened political debate for the last decade.

the strange thing about IT is that you can earn a huge amount more in the private sector. So much more infact that the big companies have outsourced much of the simpler tasks out to other countries.

I'm sure that those on meagre salaries in the private sector will be thrilled to find how well paid they are. Perhaps they're all just misreading their P60s.

Big companies have outsourced everything in IT, because they don't understand it.

Revolting
You say you don't see why doctors should moan about working hard.. Then u say they don't have clue what it's like to work like a policeman etc ( confused)

I think it's you that doesn't know.

Being a Dr is very like being a policeman, nurse, HCA, or anyone else who works overnight with the public in difficult circs .

Anyway thought u might like to know am just back from my day shift. I didn't actually sit down today or have a break of any kind in 14 hrs and had to run quite a bit too .

Believe me when you have worked like that , you know it and you recognise it in others. What do you do?

And I don 't have a pension either so u can't even bash me fir that!

Cheers ( smile)

Drs don't have a clue about long hours and responsibility ?
Surely shome mistake that's all they do know.
So a banker is more responsible than dr.. Is this my big chance to whizz the arrest bleep to a management or clipboard type person when it goes off?

This seems to have deviated from a thread on pensions.

I think the difference is in the mind set of public and private sector workers. In the private sector I have to justify my existence by bringing in money for my firm, so that I and others can get paid and office overheads met. If I want a pension when I retire what I get back depends upon what I pay in to it. When I started work annuity rates were far, far better than they are now. Higher life expectancy and lower investment returns mean that if I want the same pension I thought 20 years ago I would get when I retire O will have to pay more in.

That is a fact of life. Whatever doctors earn, whether justified or not, if they want a certain pension they are going to have to either pay for it themselves in higher contributions, like the rest of us, or persuade the rest of us to accept either higher taxes or lower public spending, on top of our own increased pension contributions, so that they don't have to pay any more into their pensions.

Revolting Peasant spot on.

With all the "wah wah wah Lifes not fair" is the thing that annoys the most. I'm quite happy for any Doctor with that spoilt brat attitude to move to New Zealand or wherever else. I'm sick of the emotional blackmail that comes with it.

If you want a good pay packet or pension, you have to work for it, no matter what job you do. No one else is somehow getting a free lunch or better conditions for the same rewards.