to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

Lots of people work just as hard as doctors (though maybe with less responsibility and less training) and don't get paid for it. It's just that society pays one sort of work more than another.

That's not the issue behind the doctors' industrial action, imo. For me it's a question of trying to protect the NHS against the Govt cuts.

For what it's worth I agree with those who think some doctors (consultants/professors) get paid too much, in the same way that uni vice chancellors and the bosses of big business also earn obscene amounts.

But living as we do in an unfair society, I suppose the very few doctors who get 6-figure sums do deserve them more than a banker or the head of a multinational company. It still sticks in the craw, though.

But it's not the amount people get paid that's the issue here. It's whether or not the doctors should fight to protect their pensions. And I think they should.

The govt (ie the taxpayer) provides an enormous amount of help to private businesses! It might not be in pensions (I don't know) but in effect big business runs the country and calls the tune.

There is a need to point out how many hours a doctor works when so many of you have come on here and say they get paid too much for too little.

I don't know much about the actual pension scheme but what most of the doctors I know are complaining about is the way this is being done. They had pension changes forced on them in 2008, now more changes are being forced on them. Is it going to happen again in another 4 years, and then 4 years after that?

Part of the 2008 changes included a rise in pension contributions. An upper limit on employer contributions was introduced to make sure that the taxpayer is not funding increasing NHS pensions. The scheme is tiered so that lower paid workers do not contribute more than higher paid workers. The scheme makes a profit every year - there is no need to make additional contributions.

The figures we hear about consultants who have retired with a 6 figure lump sum and receiving £58000 a year pension are people who have retired on the old scheme. Under the 2008 scheme this will not happen. Current figures show that only 1% of NHS pensions currently being paid out are over £55000. I hardly think this covers all retired doctors!

I'm also concerned about the age increases. Do we really want our surgeons working at 68. I can imagine how well microsurgery will go with diminishing eyesight and shaky hands.

Just out of interest does anyone know where the extra pension contributions are going? They aren't being ring-fenced - they are apparently going directly to the treasury. Are they being used for other public sector pensions/ state pensions?

The govt (ie the taxpayer) provides an enormous amount of help to private businesses!

I think that's the most riduculous thing you've posted so far in this thread. Although, it's a tough call...

snoozymum

the extra contributions go straight to the government to spend how they like.

ShellyBoobs

As and example its only recently that the railway subsidies have been reduced, they have been keeping the fares low and the share holders payouts high for years.

ShellyBoobs Government help for private businesses: PFI, academy schools.

ShellyBoobs Government help for private businesses: PFI, academy schools.

Hmmthinking
Think it's fair to point out that posters saying doctors are doing three or four day weeks and golfing and on 100k are not tight at least that is not true in the hospital setting so I am not being a spoilt brat as you so unpleasantly put it, just correcting those that don't know and obviously have the wrong idea.
The govt ruined primary care, fact.
Hospital Drs work v hard and long stressful hours in extreme pressure. Fact.
If we don't like it we can leave, yes, but we are trained and want the patients to be looked after and to care well for them.. It wouldn't be v good if all the trained hospital Drs left would it?
You are right I shouldn't moan but its tiring and I am just tired. I still love my job,
Today I worked a half day without pay as they were v stretched and was trying to keep all the Bank Holiday pts safe and well until the govt decide they will pay extra Drs to help at weekends etc.
I am bowing out of this thread now and have decided to bow out of the NHS pension scheme too.
I support the Drs strike tho I am not striking, they already paid the money in so it's not really fair.
Hope each can see the others viewpoint soon:)

I am a hospital doc, have just managed to read the whole thread.

For me the issue is not the money (though it is very, very unlikely I will ever earn the amounts quoted here) but the increased retirement age.

Hospital medicine, certainly in my specialty is rapidly moving to resident consultant on call ie consultant in hospital at night. This is a very good thing for patient care, imo but the thought of doing this, and making accurate judgements in complex situations at 4am on little sleep, when I am 68 terrifies me. I fear that as a profession we will not be safe and this should worry everyone.

I have a brother working as a trainee surgeon in hospital medicine and as a late, second career entrant so I KNOW how bloody hard his job is. IF this 'strike' had been called to protect the NHS, as arthurandGeorge states, then I would have been 100% behind it because it would have been more honest. It's the 'its not fair' bleating about pensions, and very few comments from doctors about their patients that irritates me.

So Arthur..what is the solution? Who shoud be making those decisions at 4am?? It is ludicrous that the most experienced doctors are aiming to be the least available....

(off subject I know...I do support the right it strike btw)

Oh, for goodness sake, why can't doctors say it is about their pensions? You want it wrapped I in such a way that it's about you, then you can empathise. You want it spin doctored.

Plus, AandG said s/he'd be worried about working till 68 and reaction times etc. so it is ultimately about the patients.

Plus3 - that is a good question. Important decisions need to made at any time of day or night. I think things haveoved on enormously and consultants are much more available and approachable nowadays and likely to get called.

I think that consultants should be making those decisions but I worry that at 68 ageing will have affected my competence.

Miedicine is an increasingly varied job with lots of emphasis on being good at teaching students, training junior colleagues within a framework of competencies, conducting research, developing service etc etc. I think that there is scope to work until 68 in providing expertise into some of these roles but not in making those clinical decisions.

I joked with a colleague last week that it is a pretty standard interview question to be asked "What would you do if you were worried that a colleague smelt of alcohol at work?" in 10 years time it will "What would you do if you were worried that a colleague had signs of dementia?" (Interestingly the expected responses wopuld probably be pretty similar).

I think the same can be said though about other professions and people's ability to carry out tasks as a 68 year old. I am a district nurse, I work 14 hour days regularly, I spend a lot of my day on my knees dressing legs. I spend a lot of time with palliative patients, setting up syringe drivers, giving injections, calculating drugs. I have no idea how I will be able to do this when at 35 I am exhausted by the end of the day. If the rest of the public sector have to do this then I do to feel that doctors should be any different. As much higher earners than many other workers then they will have more opportunity to save for their futures surely? The partners at my GP surgery earn over 3 times my salary, fair enough they did the training for it.

For what it's worth I think that raising the pension age will mean that many will have to retire early through ill health any way. I am fairly sure I will need knee replacements at some point! Everybody has the right to strike if they feel it necessary but I don't buy that doctors should be treated differently.

justcheckingitout You have misunderstood/ misread my post - I'll put it down to tiredness!

What I said was, drs' jobs are long-hours, difficult, and responsible. I said you deserve your salary and your pension. But I also said I don't think you should moan about the T&C because I don't think your T&C are worse than many others' - e.g. city traders, policemen, etc, all of whom have jobs with responsibility, possibly danger, and stress.

And no, I don't think you do know what a policeman's job is like unless you've done it. I used to live with a policeman. Have you ever risked your life on your job? Been stabbed? Gone into a flat to recover a two-week-old body? Controlled a massive crowd in full riot gear? No, I don't think most drs have done anything like that.

My point is: other jobs have their (pretty enormous!) stresses. Your job is important and should be remunerated, but your levels of stress/ hours are not anything special compared to those of many serious professions & many public sector jobs. That's all.

I'm an academic, since you ask. 13-hour days = nothing new.

I agree Flossie, but I don't think the fact that the same can be applied to other professions should make it less of a concern for me in my profession.

I also agree that many will need to retire early on the grounds of ill-health. I have to say I have no idea what the impact of this will be on salary/pension rights etc, etc.

Arthur you are quite right - it is NOT a competition between professions.

tbh I am just as worried about the raised retirement ages in my professions. In academia? - you might ask - who cares?

But who trains doctors? Genuinely, it's not fantastic having people who might not be at the top of their game responsible for the next gen of medics (or teachers, or anything else!).

I think we all need to pull together: just some drs on this thread seem to show a real sense of exceptionalism and elitism, and that's a shame.

Flossie - as a district nurse are you in the NHS pension scheme?

Why do you think that doctors are asking to be treated differently? These changes effect all nhs employees.

Hi revolting.. didn't completely misunderstand but disagree as my job is actually very physically demanding and extremely high stress environment by its nature

not as much violence but medicine is very hands on and there is a lot of running to emergencies, getting punched threatened and attacked by drug overdoses and alcoholics, doing cpr doing procedures talking to families whose relative has just died in the middle of the night,explaining to families why their family mamber is not going to be resuscitated or going to ITU, running after patients to section them with the police and security if they need to be,dealing with emergency sedation of violent people, certifying the patients who die etc etc etc

similar to police and nursing and similar stress quite definitely

Right, I posted this on page 19. Conveniently ignored by all those pro-no change whatsoever. WHY????

"Why should a pension agreed 20years or frankly any time frame still have to stand now and in the future without change? That makes zero sense. Any firm can change terms of contracts and or pensions or any other contract with adequate notice. I do not see this as any different. I think these pensions and any other area of public sector should be eligible for change and ongoing change. Im not saying all change is good - some will be some won't but all should be up for the change. Why on earth should nothing alter ever just because its always been so?

The logic is not only flawed its ridiculous."

I think if someone would like to attempt to answer the question sensibly as to why public sector pensions - actually read any terms and conditions of employment I think - (doctors, teachers and any/all others) should not be altered every few years those either prevaricating on the fence or coming full out against might have a bit more understanding, empathy and dare I say it even support you.

I really am curious by the way. I really do not understand why any terms of employment and or pensions should never be proposed to be altered regardless of what you do from shoe shop to Police.

I think the many public sector employees could argue that their roles will be too demanding for a 60+ year old to carry out. Of course not all will feel this way, I'm sure there will still be people happy to carry on working through to a much older age and thats great for them. The really worrying thing is that what if we don't feel capable both mentally and physically? We will have no choice but to keep on working. I completely understand the point of pension reform and people living longer, but not all people live to an old age with good health and blanket policies are just not appropriate.
The whole public vs private sector debate just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It feels like the government are making us out to be public enemy number one. Many public sector workers are seeing their pensions changed, fair enough this has to happen but it is not an easy ride many people seem to think it is. I do have an nhs pension and feel very lucky to have it and be in employment.