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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

731 replies

starwarrior · 30/05/2012 18:15

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

OP posts:
hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 12:43

I dont know how many. It will depend on a combination of final salary (so dependent on banding and unsocial hours) and the number of years service.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 12:44

my (public sector) perk = was a final salary pension but become a career average pension because I took an enforced 2 month break in service (out of work between contracts). I just had to suck it up.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:17

A long way up thread, Wheeldog wrote this:

'Haven't had time just now to read the whole thread, but I am a GP, and I voted 'no' to the BMA strike. I feel privileged to do an intellectually and emotionally satisfying job, where patients trust me and for which I feel fairly remunerated. It is not always an easy job, but I don't think any job is. I will not be striking on the 21st. I fear that we are shooting ourselves in the foot over this. We are all living longer and need to pay more for our pensions just like everyone else'.

That's exactly how I felt about striking a little while ago (I'm in education). But not now. Now I think everyone should fight for their pensions in order to protect future generations from being burdened with having to support us.

Excuse my ignorance, but are pensions taxable? Should they be - or is that the equivalent of being taxed twice? Because the solution to all this imo is to bring back the 50% rate and raise it for those very few people who are mega-rich.

hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 13:20

Pension income is taxable.

hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 13:21

see here

babybarrister · 02/06/2012 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 13:30

Good for Wheeldog. I would like him/her for my GP.

Solopower I am for a more equal society, not one that vastly priviledges one group over another even into old age.

Striking (or withdrawning labour -for the pedantic) always hurts society, whether it's doctors, bin men or teachers. Remember the miners? All it did was to hasten the destruction of their own livelihood. Now that medicine is becoming an occupation rather than a profession, docotrs will be viewed by the politicians as just another group of people who want things their own way.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:32

Thank you, Hiveofbees.

In that case, what's all the fuss about, as the doctors will be paying at least 40% of it back, won't they?

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:35

I agree, Mirry2, but I think the pressure has to be kept on the politicians. After all, if we don't protest, they will think it's ok to cut people's pensions while at the same time letting other people avoid paying their taxes.

hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 13:36

If you are basing it on a salary of £110,000 then that isn't typical.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:42

About striking hurting society, we should put the blame where it lies, with the government, not the strikers, imo.

Plus this particular withdrawal of labour isn't going to hurt an enormous number of people. Most of us won't even notice it, though I do feel really sorry for those (like my daughter, pregnant + with complications, booked in for a scan on 21st) who will be inconvenienced. And there will be a few, like the poster above, who will suffer a lot.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 13:44

But solopower tax avoidance is rife and legal for all people who are self employed (including doctors).

At some point I hope the government will it tighten up but it would be a huge job.

babybarrister · 02/06/2012 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:46

Agree, Mirry2! If they really wanted to, they'd do it tomorrow.

I read somewhere that the reason they don't is because they are worried that big business will go elsewhere. But if big business isn't paying big taxes (and if most of the jobs provided are overseas), why would we want it here anyway?

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 13:47

If most people aren't going to notice it, why do it? I think it will have a long term, detrimental effect on the way the general population view doctors.

hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 13:55

If you are based in London then that will be different. Obviously there is a london weighting, and I would expect, on the whole, a higher level of pay awards.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:59

Mirry2 I think it's a good idea for them to register their protest.

As a group, doctors have a fair amount of political clout - though not enough, sadly, to stop the govt ruining the NHS.

I think it's the privatisation of the NHS which will change the doctor-patient relationship for good. How will we trust someone who says we need a costly operation if we think they are just out to make money from us? Look at what the dentists have recently been accused of doing.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 14:21

solopower I think it will be a combination of all of this that will change patients' perspectives of doctors for the worse - not only their financial settlements but also the perceived doctor involvement in rationing of resources through the new consortiums, the inability to get through on the phone for a GP appointment let alone an actual 10 minute appointment, longer A&E waiting times, fewer patient referrals for specialist treatment.
The NHS has to change because sadly we can no longer afford it in its present form.

I really don't think many doctors realise how much people are struggling financially. We have people being made redundant, rising unemployment and young people leaving school and university unable to find a job. It really is a slap in the face when doctors complain about their pension arrangements and try to justify their £50000 odd a year pensions and £80000 and upward salary when some people can't find the money to pay for their £14 prescription. This industrial action will not endear them to the vast majority of people. But hell, they have a right to strike. They may believe themselves to have brains the size of the planet but they are living in their own private bubble.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 14:31

I would have thought that doctors are the one group that really do know about the effects that poverty, worry and insecurity have on people, because the doctor's surgery is where we all end up eventually, when we are no longer able to cope.

I don't agree that we can't afford the NHS. Imo it's simply a matter of priorities. I'd like my taxes to go towards paying for your gall bladder operation, not someone's second car or private school fees, which is what I am subsidising at the moment.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 14:39

No, doctors know that people are poor - they see it in their surgery, but many don't relate to it. They are ordinary people but ones whose minds revolve round their own job and the NHS. Very few of them have worked outside their own profession or understand what it's really like to lose a job or claim benefits. They complain that people don't keep appointments but conveniently forget that they don't run to time either and some people have just as tight a schedule in their own working lives.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 16:11

Some might be like that, Mirry2, but obviously not all! They're just like the rest of us, some good, some bad, some indifferent.

SCOTCHandWRY · 02/06/2012 16:35

No, doctors know that people are poor - they see it in their surgery, but many don't relate to it. They are ordinary people but ones whose minds revolve round their own job and the NHS. Very few of them have worked outside their own profession or understand what it's really like to lose a job or claim benefits. They complain that people don't keep appointments but conveniently forget that they don't run to time either and some people have just as tight a schedule in their own working lives.

Mirry, I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but really feel need to reply to your previous 2 posts.

I have mentioned previously, my DH and his 6 partners work in one of the most deprived area in the whole of the UK - the entire city is very socio-economically well below the UK average and the his practice covers an area of extreme deprivation - education levels are low, employment low, high level of substance addiction, violence, early death.
The Dr's are very aware of the circimstances these patients find themselves in, and a great deal of time is spent trying to DO things about it - the grinding hopelessness of this is something that affects GP's deeply - it's the reason why GP's have an appallingly high suicide rate compared with other branches of Medicine (where it's easier to "shut off" from your patients problems as you see them only once or twice).
The real soul destroying cases are the ones who attend their GP very frequently with complex multiple problems - often related to the patients social circimstances, where try as they might, there is only so much the GP can actually change.
But they are in the situation where they are priest/confessor as well as Dr - if your GP is running late it is likely to be because some other patient is having a crisis and the GP thinks it needs dealing with there and then. Should the GP tell the patient in severe crisis to come back tomorrow rather than have the surgery run late? It is not unusual for my DH to have people come in for a 10min appointment and have a crisis situation reveal itself (ranging from people completely breaking down (quite common) to people trying to assault, hold hostage and on one occasion, pull a knife from his pocket and tell my DH "this is not a threat, but I think I'm going to kill someone" ).

Sometimes, you being an hour late for your appointment is the least of the Dr's worries. I think a lot of working/healthy people attending their GP for fairly routine matters have little conception of how involved the GP is in the lives of particularly needy and vulnerable patients and families, how much time this takes or how draining it is mentally (sometimes because they can only listen, and not do much - they can't conjure up a job our of thin air or bring a dead relative back to life, or get rid of a terminal cancer).

Re prescription charges - most people don't pay, certainly the poorest in society don't. If you do pay, and need regular medications, prepayment cards can be bought which greatly reduces what you have to pay.

DH greatly resents this comment -

I really don't think many doctors realise how much people are struggling financially. We have people being made redundant, rising unemployment and young people leaving school and university unable to find a job. It really is a slap in the face when doctors complain about their pension arrangements and try to justify their £50000 odd a year pensions and £80000 and upward salary when some people can't find the money to pay for their £14 prescription. This industrial action will not endear them to the vast majority of people. But hell, they have a right to strike.They may believe themselves to have brains the size of the planet but they are living in their own private bubble.

He resents it because a huge number of his consultations are the direct or indirect result of redundancy, poverty, unemployment and the awful grinding social and economic and health problems which happen when you have generation after generation of people blighted by these issues.
DH may indeed have a brain the size of a planet Smile but he is not living in a private bubble, he is working in close contact with these people, trying to improve their lives and redress some the the health inequalities that exist between different sectors of society.

I am bowing out now.

mirry2 · 02/06/2012 16:40

SCOTCHand AWRY don't take it personally. I deliberately said many rather than all, and i know that doctors who work in very deprived areas have quite a different perspective and experience.

mummyistheword · 02/06/2012 17:48

Mirry2 what do you do then? Maybe covering ground already tread here but am curious to know. Posted a few pages back, will merely repeat, doctors save lives, they should jolly well have high salaries and for what it's worth my dh does not earn six figures and he is a partner, it depends how high earning the practice is they work in. I am going to have to bow out also, this is one of those threads I wish I'd never started to read! People passing comment on the intricacies of things they know nothing about and using their limited experience of some people's salaries to generalise about the financial ins and outs of everyone medical.......does anyone on here actually earn six figures plus? When you do then maybe you will also enjoy paying nearly half of it back in tax!!! Anyone thought about that? Yes docs earn well but they pay more tax per month than a lot of posters on here earn per month.....ie they contribute twice.....devote themselves to the health of the rich and the poor and then pay tonnes of tax into the pot for social welfare, infrastructure etc etc ......omg yes whoever said the big brains comment! Big brains saves lives. My dad was in itu a few yrs back and nearly didn't make it......I would hve those docs and nurses paid twice as much for what they did and how they helped us. That's it I'm so done. Off to spend our six figures and live it up on the golf course.......

LaCiccolina · 02/06/2012 18:12

Er why can't they pay into a private pension like so many millions of others? Why do they - and lets be clear here - your average gp earns 100k - get to have guilder pensions that us private people cannot also enjoy? Sorry but to me its another sector deciding they don't like the terms but taking all the dosh.

Suck it up is perhaps a bit harsh but I do not entirely disagree with the sentiment.