WARNING this is a state v private education thread

[icarriedawatermelon2]

AIBU to feel that this is so unfair and that my DS should have the chance to experience all this? AIBU to feel really quite crap and that I have failed him?

To cut a long story short he is at nursery in an amazing prep school. He is there because it is on our door step and the nursery package was the best around in terms of flexible hours, extras etc. Anyway thats not the issue.

The issue is I have seen just how much is available to the children there but more importantly the amazing care of all the students, small classes, amazing setting, child centered learning, freedom to climb trees, etc.

We would be killing ourselves to send our children there :(
Our local state school has a lovely head, but is full to bursting, no space outside etc etc lots of heart there but you just can't compare the two schools.

My DC are every bit worth the best IMO! It makes me MAD that we can't afford it :(

Ok rant over....feel better for getting it out.

I can sense why you feel this way and I think people are harsh to overly criticise you for feeling it. OTOH, plenty of people from the state sector do go on to the top universities and many parents actually choose it. Personally, I suspect that we will educate our children privately but we can relatively easily afford it.

I would beware of overly sacrificing to send a child to private school, though. I know so many children who are painfully aware of what sacrifices their parents are making for their schooling and what is expected of them in return. I am not sure that is healthy at all and it is really hard to never mention it at all if you are really hard up due to school fees.

I am far from convinced about the last government making private schools so much more expensive. The reality is that the average state primary pupil costs around £5k per annum and the average private pupil around £10k/annum. That doubling buys more teachers and more facilities. Health and safety is relatively marginal. Private schools are becoming more and more like country clubs, though and that is not necessarily a good thing. Personally, if I could only marginally afford private, I would choose state plus a lot of good sports clubs, some extra tuition if necessary and a lot of extra education at home.

YANBU to want certain things for your kids, if you consider that school is the best for whatever reason regardless of whether it is private or not. There are many full state schools people would love to go to but can't as they are overscribed so they end up with some shitty 2nd or 3rd choice.

I think the people calling you a twat are twats, I really can't see why it is wrong to want things for your kids at all!

hackmum

I'm still grappling with the idea that the last government's initiatives on health and safety regulations and better employment protection for working people were specifically designed to spite parents who wanted to send their children to school.

It was a consequence, not an intention, of the legislation. From the point of view of the sort of people who usually object to private schooling (wealthy Fabianites who can buy privilege for their children), that consequence was not unwelcome.

My parents sacrificed an awful lot for my education, but did ask about all the bursaries/scholarships available etc... As a result I believe I got a 50% academic scholarship from age 7-18 and my parents received a 25% bursary too, so only paid 25% of the total fee which made it more affordable for them.

I had gone to a prep nursery and reception however fees went up and my parents moved slightly further so it was deemed better for me to have a shorter day and attend the local state primary, my level of reading/writing/spelling/maths deteriorated to such an extent that my parents pulled me out towards the end of yr1 and home schooled me until I started at a private school in yr3, with the next natural intake. Unfortunately the state schools around where I lived were poor and there were no other options but private.

I am extremely grateful that I got to experience that level of not only education but pastoral and extra-curricular care and the values that being in that environment have instilled in me. Smaller class sizes and more attention to detail I believe have helped me to become a more rounded and considerate individual who not only got good grades, but I feel am a good all rounder (sport, music and charity work all featured highly in my school life).

To be honest I was brought up that not everyone is the same/does the same/has the same so it was not a massive issue that my best friends went skiing every Christmas and Easter and had luxurious half term and summer holidays, because my parents brought me up to appreciate what I had, and at the time I thought it was MAD to go away for Christmas when you could spend it being fussed over my numerous aunties/uncles/grandparents etc

OP I really admire you for being willing to consider sacrificing things or bettering your situation to provide something you feel will benefit your DC, I am eternally thankful that my parents did it for me and myself and DH I know are working hard within our fields to try and provide the same for our DC. All the best and I hope your DC does get to continue at the lovely prep ;)

Have you thought about sending him to a very rural primary school? My DC go to a school with 41 children spread over 3 classes.The school is in a 300 yr old building with spectacular views.They don't climb trees but habve a good climbing frame and playground equipment.They can do so much with the children because of the small numbers in each class.They go on a school trip every half term at the very least and top of that all had a free riding lesson, had swimming lesoons,been swimming ,hasd a BBC comedy writer come in and do a sesion with them so far this term.

As for the tree-climbing.Well children seem to have enough (minor) accidents falling off purpose designed climbing equipment on to shock resistant mats.Do you really want a phone call from your school saying your DS has fallen out of a tree and been airlifted to hospital with a broken neck? I would be very that a schools insurers would allow this.

when I went to school in the 70s there was no such debate state V private. As far as I remember there was no good schools v bad schools either. You went to your local primary, took 11 plus, then either went to comp or grammar depending on your level.

The school system is now fucked in this country with people sitting either side of the fence envying those who can send private and those able to send private thanking fuck they can scrape by and do it.

In an effort to make the system 'fair for all' they have created a monster whereby the actual education of the children falls way short of what it should be and making people like OP feel like shit.

FWIW I pay for private education for DS (with the help of my DM) as I went to see the only school I was offered - not on my list - with an open mind as I had heard bad things about it. They weren't wrong, I wouldn't have sent a dog there. I was offered an even shittier school 5 miles away - I declined and felt thankful that I had a choice

flatpackhamster: "It was a consequence, not an intention, of the legislation."

And yet in your original post you said "Of course it's unfair, but socialists hate you and I and anyone who wants to better themselves." That strong implies that you thought the last government, in improving workers' conditions, acted out of deliberate spite towards people who wanted to send their children to private school. You have provided no evidence for this assertion. I think it says a lot more about you than it does about them.

In an effort to make the system 'fair for all' they have created a monster whereby the actual education of the children falls way short of what it should be and making people like OP feel like shit.

Public schooling has always been a tiney % of the total school system, removing it wouldn't make much difference to the state system.

Where the state system has gone wrong is in allowing a whole bunch of non-educational issues to intrude into the state schooling system, so it is now a social service/correctional facility/para-NHS/TOEFL system. Which is fine if that is what everyone wants it to be, but I don't think most people do.

ok so you currently can't afford to pay for the private school but you say the local state is good, albeit bursting at the seams. Instead of working extra hours to try to afford the fees, why not spend the time getting stuck in with fundraising for the local state school, help organise some extra curricular activities etc (basically any of the things you think are missing and would benefit the kids). Help make it a better place and use your enthusiasm to show your dc a moral lesson (ie we can't always have what we want but we can make the very best of what we have).
Whilst I don't particularly agree with private/ independant schools I can understand the conflict you must be feeling with regard to what is available and what appears to be just out of reach. Surely with more vocal parents the state school can achieve more for its pupils?

I agree with NinjaChipmunk. A good pta and involved parents can do a lot for a school. The pta at my DD's primary school funded an all weather sports pitch, school mini bus and extra books for the library. As parents didn't have school fees to find, most had houses with large gardens and trees to climb.

If you want your child to go to a private school work harder to pay for it or work with the state school to improve facilities there.

I think people are being so unfair and insensitive to the OP.
She has found a school she loves and can no longer afford to send her DC there. Surely she's entitked to feel a little sad about that???

That said, OP, if it's not doable, then there comes a point where there's no sens ein beating yourself up about it. School fees are horrendously high, comapred to ten years ago. Lots of people who would like to afford it, cannot, so you are not alone.

I think people are being so unfair and insensitive to the OP. She has found a school she loves and can no longer afford to send her DC there. Surely she's entitked to feel a little sad about that???

I agree, and I think it is very reasonable to wonder why the state system can't be better than it is.

My kids have been in both state and private, in a number of countries. IMO if the UK state system focussed on just educating the kids, and had better class discipline, quality would jump hugely.

Well quite.

People are allowed to consider things to improve their DC's lives.

Yesterday a friend came for lunch and said she wished that she could work flexibly as I do. She sees it as being highly positive for the family.

Now I suspect less than 7% of DC have the advantage of parnets who have this in their working lives....but I think my friend is allowed to feel a bit sad about it.

OP, i am not surprised at all that you feel this way. I am approaching from another angle...i was state educated and made it to oxbridge and onto a v.good job. I am a "success story" for inner city education. I am also looking at schools for my DD. I visited 3 private schools last month and was gobsmacked at the difference between them and my very good state school. The facilities, the trips, the music, art, the food- everything is at their fingertips, thanks to the £££ the parents pay.

When i compare it to even the best states in the area, it is like night and day. So, whilst I know you can have a lifetime of great opportunities and success as a result of state education, I know your horizons are even broader if you pay for your education. Not a good conclusion to reach, but one I have come to.

It is only natural to want to be able to provide the best for your child- regardless of whether that makes them equal to others or not. I did not have a DD to make all children equal, she is not my political tool. I am here now to open as many doors as I can to her. Luckily I can afford to do so. I suggest, if there are no bursaries open to you- you go with the State school and then use any spare cash to enable her to try music/dance/art/sports on weekends, or pay for tutors if ever needed. She will make great friendships, be supported by good teachers, and know she has a mum who truly cares about her education (sadly not all kids do).

Good luck.

as for "work harder to pay for it" what economic planet do you operate on? as we roll into a double dip recession, worse than economists predicted, I can't quite see which jobs people can magically upgrade to.

UANBU
I wish I could send my two to their friends independent school, but I can't.

It's lovely, but I'm not convinced the education is £1000s a year better.

hackmum

And yet in your original post you said "Of course it's unfair, but socialists hate you and I and anyone who wants to better themselves." That strong implies that you thought the last government, in improving workers' conditions, acted out of deliberate spite towards people who wanted to send their children to private school. You have provided no evidence for this assertion. I think it says a lot more about you than it does about them.

That wasn't my original implication and it seems to me that's quite a leap you made there. But there is a very clear strain of thought amongst socialists of many stripes that anyone wanting to 'step outside' the system and do their own thing is somehow a traitor and so should suffer for it. There aren't many places where this mentality is more apparent than the education system.

By the way, Labour only improved conditions for the people who could get jobs. The minimum wage has created an unemployable underclass, just as it has in France, which has high social protection for jobs but near-permanent unemployment of 8%, even in the 'boom times'. Is it worth sacrificing low-skilled and unskilled workers in order to achieve a cosy protection system for everyone else? I would question how anyone who considers themselves a socialist would support a minimum wage, for example, since it excludes so many unskilled workers, particularly where the labour force is mobile. One of the consequences of our membership of the EU was the arrival of over 1 million Poles, all of whom were happy to take minimum wage jobs. That directly contributed to systemic unemployment of unskilled workers.

flatpackhamster you still haven't provided any evidence for your assertion. Your second paragraph has what to do with the thread?

I think it's reasonable for the OP to say she feels sad, or that it is a shame, but the problem is the use of 'unfair' - you can't be overtaken by a sense of the unfairness of it all as soon as you personally reach the point where you can't afford it, if it didn't bother you when you could!

I felt exactly the same as the OP. I became determined that my children would have the experience that the private school offered. I went back to work full time and both our children have scholarships, so we scrape by. We never go on holiday and my car is shit. But the pleasure I get from feeling they are at a school where things are done properly is worth it. I am afraid I never got that feeling when they were in state education.

Flatpack that is interesting. I had wondered why my parents, on modest teachers salaries were able to send me to private school and yet even though my DH and I earn around 50% more than they ever did (real terms) we stand no hope of DS going private. I have always assumed I was shit with money and I think there's bound to be some of that but it's interesting to hear that it really has become relatively more expensive and of course more exclusive.

Have you looked at keeping him there for reception?

He will qualify for his 15 hours funding until the term he is 5 and you can also continue paying with salary scarifice vouchers until they are legal school age. Should cost you the same (or less) than nursery.

Cons - if state is oversubscribed you may lose the place if you only want him to join in yr 1.

I just mention it in case you are unaware.

OP, I get it, I totally do and I think you're getting a hard time on here. You very clearly stated in your thread title the state v. private thing and so those people on here giving you a hard time probably just sit around waiting for threads like this so they can get on their little soapboxes and judge people.

Somewhere up thread someone said they turned down a scholarship to an independent school for their child. Whaaat???!! Is it too late to reconsider? I went to a rubbish comp until I was 16 and won a scholarship to a major public school and my life changed in an instant. I can never thank my parents enough for giving me that encouragement and it was the best educational experience of my entire life. I'm sorry, but there is a huge difference between state and independent and everyone bleating on about how if those using the private sector were to return to state it would make a huge difference: what utter rubbish. Only 7% of kids are in independent education. It would make next to no difference.

Of course you are not a bad parent if you can't afford to send your child to private school. Nobody would ever, ever say that. But I can understand why you feel sad.

There is a difference. It's sad but true. Educational standards in this country are at an all time low, caused by a mixture of under-funding, existing social problems and lack of incentives for our brightest and best graduates to go into teaching. While this mess continues, it's no wonder you feel the way you do OP.

I get very cross with people who have never experienced a private education being so adamant that it's morally wrong to have one. Smacks of misguided jealousy if you ask me.

But then again, ladyrabbit, if one had had a private education and then wanted to pull the ladder up, that would be dubious too, surely?

OP didn't say 'I'm sad about this situation' - she said 'this is a state v. private thread' - so the oppositional nature of the debate was flagged for us from the beginning!

It's not, IMO, the presence of private school children or their parents in the state system that would be a good thing and make a difference - it would be the actual fact of no private schools, and no 'two-tier system' that I would welcome.