WARNING this is a state v private education thread

[icarriedawatermelon2]

AIBU to feel that this is so unfair and that my DS should have the chance to experience all this? AIBU to feel really quite crap and that I have failed him?

To cut a long story short he is at nursery in an amazing prep school. He is there because it is on our door step and the nursery package was the best around in terms of flexible hours, extras etc. Anyway thats not the issue.

The issue is I have seen just how much is available to the children there but more importantly the amazing care of all the students, small classes, amazing setting, child centered learning, freedom to climb trees, etc.

We would be killing ourselves to send our children there :(
Our local state school has a lovely head, but is full to bursting, no space outside etc etc lots of heart there but you just can't compare the two schools.

My DC are every bit worth the best IMO! It makes me MAD that we can't afford it :(

Ok rant over....feel better for getting it out.

Kirsty, having been inside many Prep schools I've seen many where that brilliance you may have seen has been crafted from the start. Non selective Preps that take all (unless significant SEN) two years above the national expectation for age. Children that if they leave for state usually go straight to top sets in Comps regardless of innate ability. Fantastic teaching by subject specialists, small class sizes I could go on. I think this makes so much more difference than many know. Look at the reading list for many independent schools in Y6, yes they'll generally have one and yes the books will be difficult. The expectations are generally way, way higher than state schools.

Minds that have been continually stretched and challenged by able specialists generally become quick and agile.

Lovingthecoast I couldn't do it either. I do think we should be wary of labelling some teachers as being a higher quality than others when the job they have to do is just so much easier than for many comprehensive school teachers.

Yes and likewise two teachers in state schools in very different areas. When we lived in Cheshire I spent part of my time there teaching in Cheshire and part of it teaching in two inner city areas of Manchester.

The teachers teaching kids from Wilmslow and Alderley Edge were certainly less stressed and certainly got much higher results overall but that doesn't make them better teachers than those teaching in Manchester. IMO, the jobs were very different.

My brother was employed as ateacher at an Indie before he did his PGCE, There are no restrictions at all on who they can hire to teach (apartof course from child protection stuff) unlike state schools where all new teachers have to be graduates and have QTS

Absolutely, Oopsi, but no doubt he had something they wanted and he must have come across extremely well.

I think inequalities persist and myths pervade because so many take the scenario you've described to mean the independent sector takes on poor candidates/teachers who are not qualified and in reality a bit of a gamble. IME & opinion this is definitely not the case. Weak teachers don't generally last in the independent sector and very poor schools generally close.

The OP made a point about wanting her child to have the experience of a school she has seen is lovely, but that she can't afford. Immediately people jump in and say she should use the state system as it is good enough for Rowan's children (as she could afford to go private but won't - even tho' they are not yet schol age - interesting so see what the decision is at that point...). Shagmudfreud then tells us all about the shambolic situation she faces re state education - errr - isn't that just reinforcing the Op's opinion? why on earth would the OP decide to go state on that basis!!!
And... as usual, poeple trot out the received idea that state children at Oxford get better degrees than those independently educated - this makes a regular appearance on MN threads without anyone ever linking to genuine research.
In any case - what is the relevance of Oxbridge - and degrees? The OP is talking about the learning experience of a five-year-old - this is not about outcomes, but having a happy and fulfilled childhood - Oxbridge degrees = total red herring.

Well said MrsGuy.

I agree, MrsGofG. As I said earlier, I pay for the everyday learning experience of my kids and don't give a toss about outcome other than them reaching their potential. In fact the whole concept of paying to achieve better results seems bizarre to me.

larry back in the day, very few students had the opportunity to take further maths because it wasn't offered. Even in the mid 90s in my school it wasn't a timetabled option and I had to teach myself with some lunchtime sessions. These days the Further Maths Support Network means that there is support to offer it, or there are centres students can go to to be taught it. At the school I teach at it's a fully timetabled option and as a result more accessible to students who wouldn't otherwise consider it. It doesn't matter that further maths was harder back in the day if hardly anyone could take it and so it couldn't be part of university entry requirements. More unis requiring it will then also drive up demand and more students will take it, improving standards in general.

I agree that there should also be a maths qualification for students who don't want to take maths A-level but need more maths. However, I would disagree that if this were to be introduced that Maths A-level should be made harder than it already is - take-up is still low and students that need A-level shouldn't be induced into taking a less rigorous course. Those of a mathematical bent should be encouraged into further maths.

Have you read the recent Carol Vorderman report into maths? Don't be put off by the fact that it was headed by Carol, it's actually pretty interesting with some good recommendations.

Noble,

Will def give it a read. Thanks.

I do think that it is profoundly sad that hard maths (well, relatively hard) seems to have been taken off the curriculum altogether (and rather shocked to discover that there is now ZERO calculus in A level physics). Is the idea that talented people like you should learn it from a book? I know it is possible but surely schools should support the able as well as the less able?

I would like to see more of the type of problems with a narrative that you see in the maths challenges for younger pupils ) ie primary maths challenge, junior maths challenge etc some of which are hilarious - eg snow white wants to weigh the seven dwarves, they are two shy to be weighed separately but agree to be weighted in pairs etc... teaches them algebra without them even knowing it is algebra. Maths can and should be fun, and where it is taught by enthusiatic confident teachers it is inspiring to all abilities.
Sadly there has been a dumbing down of teachers of maths. I know from personal experience - applied for a PGCE to specialise in modern languages. As soon as the college saw maths A level on my form, they tried to persuade me to teach maths instead . I explained that I did not rate my ability to teach maths, would nor be confident I could justice to able pupils, they airily said - 'all you need is to be a few pages ahead of the pupils' and they were not joking . if that is the aspiration for 'qualified' maths teachers, no wonder in the UK we lag behind other countries.
(btw I m delighted with the maths teaching at my DC school, because it is fun and stimulating, not because I expect them to get A levels in it. The school happens to be indie, and so according to some posters on this another threads, likely to be full of 'unqualified' teachers)

It isn't just maths that has changed over the years. My own subject, history was deemed too academic, stuffy and boring and the range and depth that I did at O Level is now found at A Level. I can say this now that I'm out of it but GCSE history had become more, 'compare these two pictures' rather than 'discuss the relevance of ... to ...!' Some exam boards are more guilty of this than others but they are competing to encourage schools to use them and of course a school worried about their league tables will opt for the syllabus they think most of their kids will pass. I think this has led many schools to adopt the IGCSEs, certainly in maths, as a way of showing that their pupils can cope with the most rigorous of courses. Likewise schools such as Noble's who offer further maths as standard.

MrsGuy, very few good independent schools use unqualified staff. It is said a lot on these threads and I'm sure it has happened but it is far rarer these days. Also, the advent of training on the job, there is little need for it these days.

Oh and when I taught maths to 11yr olds, it was full of problem solving especially for the more able.

In too many primary classrooms you see the more able having more or extra work as an 'extension'. This is totally the wrong way round IMO. Quite often my Y6s would have 5 problems on a page. The more able group often just had one or two much more complex ones.

It used to make me cringe to observe a colleague's maths lesson and there would be a pile of extension sheets on the desk for those who understood and finished the task first. Extending, especially in maths needs to be less about quantity and more about stretching that basic knowledge.

As a relatively new Mum, I had no idea this was such a hot debate. I have one DC and she is 18 months so all this is a long way off. I'd quite happily encourage down the Grammar route, as that's what I did. I didn't realise you could pay for extra tuition for the 11+ though, I just did it as a bit of fun to see if I passed, then my parents left it up to me if I wanted to go when I did pass.

Private school never even occured to me...maybe because I know I'll never be able to afford it.

On the subject of maths, I was always really lucky as my sister's OH is a mathematician and loved teaching me things. He taught me algebra and pi etc when I was around 10 I think. I'd be quite happy doing the same for my DD if she showed interest.

occurred sorry

Hi Scarlet - I'd never seen anything remotely like my 11+ test when I did mine - and neither had my friends I'm sure. We never did any tests and there was virtually no mention of it coming up. Just one day "We're going to do this test today, everyone" - that sort of thing. This was in 1976 !

I think things have changed a bit I passed it and went to the lovely grammar school up the road where I made lots of friends - and did well enough in the Sixth form to get to a "Russell group" Uni - though again that's a term I've only heard quite recently.

JWTO same here - I vaguely recall we had test once a year, but no big deal was made of them, certainly no prep or advance warning, and it turned out that one of them happened to be the 11+ - I doubt my parent were aware it was happening, and nor were we... Would be good if it just happened that way now...