To say no to the school?

[Annunziata]

I had the world's worst work experience girl a few weeks ago. If she came on time, she was completely inappropriately dressed, she was rude, she was lazy... it goes on and on.

And then this morning her school sent me an email asking if I could write a new reference because (and I quote) 'we felt that the original one was not very positive and will not benefit X in the future.'

AIBU to say no? I think giving her the truth will benefit her more in the future than telling her she was wonderful!

@Thehouseonthecorner. Possibly they deserve something, but that something should not involve lying to a third party on a fairly important matter. It could be difficult for a small business to handle if they hired the wrong person for a job on the basis of a dishonest reference.

Good for you, excellent response, Ann. Keep to your guns.

I think your response to the school is good. was well behaved on my work experience because went to a strict school - but was pretty hopeless in my paid holiday jobs. I cringe when I look back at some of my immature behaviour at work when I was starting out - making personal calls, being obviously hungover etc and only learnt not to because I was told off by by a supervisor. Learning how to behave properly in the "grown up" world doesn't always come naturally. You're giving her a second chance (well maybe it's more like the fourth) to rectify the situation and gain a strong reference. That's life - that's how you learn.

Anyone else surprised at the school's response?

Well done Annunziata! Can't be doing with all this "oo, mustn't let them have any negativity, it's damaging to their self esteem" stuff - they need to learn how to handle negativity and how to address points made in criticism, not get bolstered up in their own conceit any more!

If you give a false good reference which was subsequently relied on by someone else, you could be responsible. The school may have to arrange another placement for her where she works harder if she wants a good reference

I wish I was surprised at the school's response, Queen. But schools seem to have forgotten that their eventual job is to prepare students for the real world. And that means not everyone can get a gold star, a trophy, 'child of the week' or whatever. Real world means disappointment.

Well done for standing your ground OP! I can't believe the school trying to pressure you into writing a positive reference when the student does not deserve one! Perhaps their time would be better spent teaching the student how to earn a good reference?

Well done for not giving in.

I would not class this as a "reference" anyway. To me if it is something that has been sent to the school and they/she will just send out to potential employers, it is a testemonial. Because testemonials are actually seen by the person they are about; they tend to not be "worth" as much anyway as they are rarely bad. A proper reference (to me, and I know I am old, so things may have changed) is one where a potential employer writes or rings a previous employer and gets a confidential appraisal.

It's very gracious of you to offer to give the girl a second chance. I don't think I would have been charitable. As to the school, words fail me.

Great idea at offering her the chance to change your opinion of her and good on you for not caving to the school's demand for you to lie.

Even poor performance for you can be twisted for the student by the school - they can now recommend non-customer facing; shift work (as she clearly can't work to a schedule); sit-down job.

The school (well, her guidance teacher) has replied: 'I'd prefer that you focused on what X did right rather than on the less positive aspects of her performance

I expect all the annual reports and parents' evenings follow the same pattern. How on earth are pupils ever to cope with the world of work when they're pandered to like this?

The school (well, her guidance teacher) has replied: 'I'd prefer that you focused on what X did right rather than on the less positive aspects of her performance

The student acheived the following while with me:
*Arrived at some point
*Left on time

Done.

We had a terrible work experience girl too -

when we complained to the school that she would roll in late every day (and not just 10 mins or so but at least an hour late) they were really pleased because this girl rarely made it to school, and they said that the fact that she had turned up every single day late or not showed great commitment from her!

Well done for sticking to your guns. From my experience working with grads, it is far better that someone gets this sort of feedback at age 14 from a teacher/form tutor than age 21 when some pretty bad habits may already be well entrenched. I have had to put in so much time with some trainees on the basics of things like punctuality, attitude, appearance etc and by that stage you really have to hammer it home almost daily in some cases!

You've shown yourself to be more than reasonable by offering her another chance at Work Experience and also saying you're happy to discuss it directly with her; and I agree with those who say it devalues those who have worked hard and made a good impression on their placements.

You've already replied to the school so it's a bit late, but I would have been tempted to tell the school that actually, you had already re-written the reference but that they did have the positive one - attaching a copy of a no-holds barred version that said what you really thought of her as per your OP

What Gnocchi said.
The guidance teacher is doing her a very big disservice really, by imagining everyone in the real world will focus on her students good points, however meagre, and completely ignore the bad. What sort of preparation for the world of work is that?

She's "guiding" them in completely the wrong direction

*If someone turns up and works (even badly) for free then they deserve SOMETHING in return...what about mentioning that she is open to advice and willing to learn (in ref to the trousers) and that she is a friendly person....?
*

She is getting something in return- work experience! In the real world there are no points for just showing up and the very valuable lesson she's learning about this at the age of 14 is a gift. In fact, if she goes on her next work experience having actually learned something from this one, her guidance teacher's reference can say how much she improved- much more useful than a lukewarm, untrue reference.

Think your response was spot on ... and the offer to let her redeem herself was very generous.

I don't get the school's attitude at all ... quite apart from potentially misleading future employers, and giving this girl praise she doesn't deserve (and therefore no incentive to improve), giving false "positive" references does a disservice to all those kids who do make an effort at work experience. It's hard enough out there ATM for young kids to get work - is it fair that the genuinely deserving could, in the future, be considered on a level basis with someone like this who shouldn't even be in the running ?

I also think the school's approach to you was bloody rude TBH. By pressing you to rewrite this they are almost calling you a liar. Why the heck do they think you wrote a less than glowing reference after all ? It is entirely feasible that some kids have no redeeming features .. why lie about it when the truth could give them - and maybe the oh-so-politically-correct school for that matter - the kick up the bum they need to turn things round ?

*If someone turns up and works (even badly) for free - rarely is work experience free to the employer. For most employers this has a cost, lost productivity where a member of staff spends time showing the WE how to do things and in this case actually breaking plates and potentially upsetting clients.
I say this as a huge advocate of WE, I extensively (for nothing) with our local education business partnership to encourage the offering of WE, I offer over 200 days a year in my own business and as a Business Ambassador going into schools to talk to students about the expectations of the businesses they are going to WE in. One of the key points I make is the ability to take constructive criticism.
WE is much much more important that parents or students appreciate even when you don't enjoy it. Firstly that is a career of the list you don't want to do, secondly it enables you identify what you did and didn't enjoy to help you to focus on what you would like to do and finally it can lead to a career - my best WE became employed by my company which then paid for a 3 year college course that has enabled her to acquire a professional qualification.
One thing many WE providers forget or just don't want to do is that you can 'sack' a poor WE and send them back to school. I have done this once in a similar situation to the OP.
I will now climb of my soap box and go and polish my award I won this year for commitment to WE.

You sound as if you've been very fair OP.
I once had a former apprentice harangue me over the phone as she'd been turned down for a post working with vulnerable adults, due to references.
I had written the truth and she tried to tell me I 'wasn't allowed' to give a bad reference. I had to explain that I was allowed to tell the truth.

OP I'm glad you have given her a 2nd chance...now it's up to her isn't it? If her teachers and parents have anything about them, then they will be grateful for that.

When did schools start pussy footing around like this? When I was at school
I was a relatively good pupil, handed home work in on time but my school reports still say things like 'if storm showed as much interest in mcbeth as she did in scraping the metal on her pencil case with her compass I have no doubt she would have produced excellent work'

I did however get a glowing report from the nursery I did my WE at as I worked bloody hard. So hard in fact that when a staff member phoned in sick they failed to get cover and used me in their staff to child ratios!

Ahh hello!

We are very much looking forward to our students heading off on work experience in a couple of weeks. It is always a great experience for them....mainly because so many of them do so badly and they realise that the world doesn't owe them a living, or even care about them too much. We LIKE the kids to fail and get fired (which always happens to about 10, out of a cohort of 250) because they learn a really, really valuable lesson. I can genuinely say I've seen it change lives, because it can really inspire kids to work.

However, aren't references usually focussing on the positive? I've never read a reference like that. Normally, for a bad student, we'd be expecting to read things like, 'she turned up' and 'sometimes she was able to follow instructions' etc. We would expect to read through the lines. Would you give a reference like that for a real employee?

I should think it's pretty obvious that this girl's behavior reflects her school's standard of discipline. When the NUT surveyed their members in 2009, 79% of them said that low-level disruption and disrespect were now so bad that they found it difficult to teach.

Before you start blaming feckless mums (not Mumsnetters, of course), I've been in lots of schools in rough areas where all the kids were perfectly well-behaved. And almost invariably, the Heads were older teachers who had done their time on the chalk-face, and they backed their teachers to the hilt.

However, these days a lot of schools are run by cliques of bright young things who've been fast-tracked into management on the basis of their Master's degrees in Education and training by Future Leaders. I've talked to teachers who just about had nervous breakdowns in schools like this: when you have senior managers who really believe that pupils are entitled to publicly criticise teachers, you end up with brats like the one Annunziata got.

We have a policy of sending back unsatisfactory work experience students.
They get a warning first, then kapow!
It's surprising how many feel aggrieved and sulk, rather than ashamed or embarrassed.