To say no to the school?

[Annunziata]

I had the world's worst work experience girl a few weeks ago. If she came on time, she was completely inappropriately dressed, she was rude, she was lazy... it goes on and on.

And then this morning her school sent me an email asking if I could write a new reference because (and I quote) 'we felt that the original one was not very positive and will not benefit X in the future.'

AIBU to say no? I think giving her the truth will benefit her more in the future than telling her she was wonderful!

I'd give a bland "I confirm X worked here for two weeks between X date and X date". That's it. Surely the stuff that the OP has written should not be contained in a reference (so for external people), but in a report back to the school.

Callisto- I've had lots of really good kids over the years, she's certainly the exception IME.

Drcrab- I did send them a letter (to give to her) stating exactly what was required. I do like that phrasing though!

Stand your ground. If she wanted a positive reference she should have thought about her work and behaviour while she was there. She'll have to learn that while schools have to write positive reports even if the pupil's work and behaviour are awful the workplace is different.

Don't give her another reference!

The lesson learned here is not to think you can arse about on a work experience placement and then just pick up a glowing reference.

Why on earth should you give her a great reference to help her get a job, where on the face of it she'd not be a particularly great asset.

If she wants a good reference then she'll get off her backside, organise another work placement somewhere and do better this time.

I've worked with a work experience boy once (16 or so?). He was v articulate, very clear about what he wanted to be when he 'grew up', what he wanted to study at a top university. also, very polite, had alot of initiative...and oh, was from the nearby public school. hm.

I'm kinda involved in work placements at the university level and we put in a lot of effort in training and students and selecting the 'right' student for the placement. It takes a lot of effort on the part of the staff but what has happened is that the students are really prepared and it pays off. I'd say an ovevrwhelming majority of them get a job offer for when they graduate a year later.... even in this economic recession.

I thought it was unlawful to give a negative reference, even if it's true

No, it certainly isn't. In fact, giving an honest reference is considered so
important that you have a defence if you do get sued.

I think you have tried to give a fair and honest reference, so you should stick with it. If the girl had wanted a good reference, she should have tried harder. Being evasive, equivocal or downright dishonest does her no favours and is very unfair on anyone who might employ her on the strength of it and would then find themselves saddled with a poor employee.

Do this girl a FAVOUR and stand your ground. She may learn from this and get the shock she needs to smarten up and realise that yes, you do actually have to behave yourself/be on time/take the consequences of your actions when you are out in the REAL WORLD!

Ask the school exactly how they think that writing a reference which sends the message to this girl that lateness, disobedience and arrogance are acceptable to employers will help her. I would say it will do the opposite - lull her into a false sense of security now from which she'll have a very nasty awakening come her first paid job!

Stick to your guns OP. She turned up, was crap, and left. She does not deserve a good reference and you would have to lkie to give her one.

And Eldritch is right - you have to give an honest reference. You are perfectly entitled to give a bad reference if performance/attitude/etc was poor (though most employers now just refuse to give a reference at all to save themselves the hassle of having the subject fo the reference whinging at them).

It obviously depends on the child, perhaps it is because of the kind of work DH can offer - basically unskilled, repetative factory work. I guess the children with a bit of gumption get to do 'better' work experience?

"Ask the school exactly how they think that writing a reference which sends the message to this girl that lateness, disobedience and arrogance are acceptable to employers will help her."

I second this.

Glad to see there is a consensus!

Eldritch Cleavage- that's exactly it, I would be furious if I hired someone on the basis of a reference that was basically a lie.

Drcrab- you're obviously a lot more highranking than me, but I really do enjoy having the WE kids and they do get a lot out of it. We took on one girl full time after hers, she absolutely blossomed and is now a manager (of a different restaurant) in her own right. And our state school does provide several gems!

I think that reference will (should) benefit her in the future by making it clear what standards are expected in the workplace and the consequences if you don't meet them.

But you could issue a new one:

"X turned up to work at some point every day. Her style of workwear afforded me an opportunity to confirm that her underwear is always clean and well-presented. She is confident in expressing her opinions on a wide range of subjects and the [establishment] will not be the same without her."

isn't the convention with references that you only agree to write one if it's going to be positive i.e. if you think they were crap you just decline to be a referee - i know that's not possible in this case but i thought i'd throw it into the mix anyway

Oops, cross posts. Again, glad to see the consensus.

It's only a restaurant, Callisto, nothing high ranking! I think there is definitely an attitude (among some of them) that they're 'too good' for hard work. (God I sound like the Daily Fail) B

Posted too soon! Love CaseyShraeger's alternative, although I can confirm that she turned up bra-less one day

Oh!! I wasn't suggesting state school was worse than public school... sorry if that was what it looked like. I was volunteering at a charity, and this boy was doing work experience there - he happened to be from a public school.

I'm convinced that the state school system can turn out gems (just as well since my kids are going state!)...

sorry for any misunderstanding!

I like the alternative - maybe suggest that, if they can't come up with a marking criteria for you..?

Or you could think of it along the lines of
Appearance: 1-5
Communication: 1-5
Time-keeping: 1-5
Teamwork: 1-5
Initiative: 1-5
Overall: 1-5

will I hire X again: Y/N (why)

Absolutely love Casey's alternative reference

No need to apologise! It didn't look like that really.

Years ago when I was training,we sent a we pupil out to a placement in a garage. When the teacher turned up to see how he was getting on, he couldn't see him straight away. Turned out, some of the permanent staff had put him into a bin and closed the lid (very large bin) as he was annoying and lazy. This is the real world - tell the truth. If you change the reference then there is always the comeback from future employers when they find out the truth and blame you for employing someone unsuitable.

Yes, but even asking for and using a marking system is just a means of fudging the fact she was really poor, and why should the OP do that? I appreciate she is only young, but it would be a very bad thing if she (and the school) get the message that with a bit of pressure you can get a reference re-written to deny reality.

A few years ago DS1 had a work placement sorted via school (some sort of office job I think) - that fell through, so they found a last minute job working in a local hotel. DS1 was not that keen, had no plans to do that sort of job - not the point we said and made it clear he should do his best. Well he did - worked hard in the week (despite being a bit unwell with a cold). At the end they said give us a call when you are 16 and have a try out in the restaurant etc. He did the trial and then worked through 6th form and part of 1st year uni. That gave him money, a very good reference which he's used a few times (is now going to coach tennis in USA this summer).

DS2 seeing this also wanted to do the same, so did the same placement (just before Easter) at the same hotel (new management) - is hoping to secure a job as we don'ty pay them pocket money as such! Hopefully DS2 may go to Oxbridge or similar but doing a manual type job gives them a good work ethic and a good reference is very key.

I'd agree that the reference should reflect what happened and if she didn't take up offer that employees make to take on these kids - even for short WE placements then they should learn. The school should be backing you up to.

My DW works in an EDB school and these types of jobs often are the type of work they would end up doing and then don't put the effort in - not saying its the only work they can do and you can start at the bottom and work up but it's not often seen that way.

Roseformeplease -

Have to say I agree with eldritchcleavage about the marks. It would amount to much the same anyway, just with less detail.

Look on it as being unfair to the good work experience student who gets refused a job later because you're known for giving good references to poor candidates.

No! You do a favour when you take on a WE, and if she ended up with a crappy report that is her fault and not yours! Unbelievable cheek by the school!