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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder about all the press on Social Services taking children away?

458 replies

goldbracelet · 17/05/2012 22:24

From good families and parents for no good reason. It is media hype or is there truth in it?

Talking with friends recently, some say they are careful about what they say to the GP for fear of what goes down on record. For example, they would think twice before saying something along the lines of, "I'm finding it hard to cope with my young children while sick with flu (or whatever illness)".

Amy social workers out there who could comment? Is it true that 95% of children are never returned to their parents once removed?

Scary. I can't believe this could happen.

OP posts:
crashdoll · 30/11/2012 19:38

Where are you getting these stats from? Links please!

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:39

www.channel4.com/news/revealed-the-networks-helping-families-flee-social-services

The families say they are forced to flee because they will not get a fair hearing in the UK in the family courts. They turn to shadowy networks, often based online, and run by other parents, many of whom have already lost their children to the care system.

The scale and sophistication of the networks is extraordinary. We were told of safe houses across the UK where parents and their children could lie low before heading overseas, of fake birth certificates and of keys for rented homes in foreign countries that are exchanged in the middle of the night by strangers connected only by the networks.

As to the numbers involved it is impossible to verify, but we were told by one woman central to several groups that help parents get out of the country, that there has been "anything [from] 300 to 600 families in the past year that have left [the UK] from the involvement of social care".

The most popular destination is the Republic of Ireland, but the networks extend across Europe, Mediterranean countries being the other main destinations for families on the run.

From UK foster care to Cavan

We went to Cavan, a small town in the Republic of Ireland and one of the hubs for the network. There we met a mother who described a meticulously-planned snatch operation to steal her four-year-old son from foster care in the UK. At an organised contact session, she arranged an untraceable car, fake ID papers and even had a wig waiting in the car. "I knew I had to get him and get to the boat straight away. I knew that if I got caught, I would be done for kidnap," she says.

Her son had originally been put into voluntary care after she had a breakdown. She insists she got better but they refused to return him - leaving her, she says, with no choice but to run.

Having made it to Ireland she turned herself in to the authorities in the belief ? shared by many in these networks ? that she would get a fairer hearing from Irish social services. "They are not idiots over here but it's the way they act [and] work completely differently," she says. "They took him, completed the assessment and decided what was in my son's best interests."

For this mother that decision turned out to be that she could keep her son. Having been helped by the network herself, she in turn began to help others. This is how the networks regenerate themselves and grow.

SirBoobAlot · 30/11/2012 19:40

Right well that is bollocks. I have Borderline Personality Disorder, have numerous suicide attempts on my medical history, along with a period in a psych unit, and every self destructive behavior you can think of. I am under the most intense out patient hospital unit, and attend group therapy once a week, with a one-to-one session weekly as well.

And there has never been even the faintest suggestion of it even being considered that my son is removed from my care.

All of my psych reports comment on how good my parenting is, and how wonderful my son is. He has attended quite a few of my one-to-one session as well as psych sessions when I haven't been able to get a babysitter.

So its total bullshit to suggest that you are diagnosed with a mental health condition and instantly have your children removed.

You are obviously dealing with a lot of your own issues right now, understandably, but please stop the scaremongering, because that's all it is.

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:41

The charge levelled against the parents we spoke to was not physical or sexual abuse but emotional abuse or the risk of future emotional neglect or abuse. They say it is a charge that they cannot defend themselves against.

We met one British couple, Julie and Andy (not their real names), hiding out in a southern European country [pictured above]. The network helped them flee from the UK earlier this year when they discovered she was pregnant. They are now a couple in hiding.

Like many parents we met, their argument was that they were not given a fair hearing by a system that was too quick to remove children. Their child was removed at birth because the mother, who suffered pre-natal depression during her pregnancy, and the father, were assessed as posing a risk of future emotional neglect.

According to the couple, the local authority "just pressed the nuclear button". Talking about their daughter being placed in care they told Channel 4 News: "We hadn't hurt her. We were punished for something that we hadn't done."

While they accept the need for action in some cases they insist that parents can be accused of something that it is impossible to defend themselves against: "We recognise that that the child protection system is important but you can be convicted of the potentiality of causing harm or neglect."

They are now in hiding. "Once you've lost one you have no chance at all...after our experiences of our first child we have absolutely no confidence at all in the system."

Mr Josephs and the other networks say they screen parents and do background checks into their histories before offering help. But how much can they really know about the parents and children they help flee the UK and the safeguards of the child protection system?

It all poses profound questions about who these networks are helping and whether they are not in fact putting some children in further danger. It is a view shared by Professor Corinne May-Chahal, the co-chair of the College of Social Work. "It is clearly saying that there is something very wrong with the system, if the only option people have is to run then there has to be something that needs to be looked at," she told Channel 4 News.

sunshine401 · 30/11/2012 19:43

Well hand on heart nothing that has been declared on here tonight has EVER happened in my department and never would!
We have strict guidelines for one we have to go through channels we can not just randomly start demanding that people hand over their children it is not like that at all. The media are totally wrong!

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:45

channel 4 news

An investigation reveals how flawed expert testimony from paediatricians and psychiatrists is having a profound and disturbing effect on some family cases as they move through the system - at its most extreme, ending with children being wrongfully removed from their parents.

Last month we reported on startling new research which raised a number of serious issues about the quality of evidence given by psychologists in family courts. Among the findings was the fact that some 20 per cent of psychologists were not deemed qualified and that some 65 per cent of expert reports were judged to be poor or very poor quality.

At the time, the Family Justice Council - which part-funded the research - said that it didn't believe that the failings identified would lead to perverse decisions being made by the courts.

It has sparked a huge debate about the role experts play in the family courts - and not just pscyhologists. We have spoken to a number of families where "perverse" decisions have indeed been made on the basis of expert assessments, including one woman, Sharon, who lost her children for years, only to win them back when the expert testimony was deemed to have been disproven.

Sharon's story

The secrecy of the family courts means we cannot relate precise details of Sharon's case. But it hinged on experts appointed by the family court.

Struggling with four young children, Sharon turned to social services for help only to find herself in court her threatened with losing her children. Soon after, her worst fears came true as the court ordered the removal of the three boys and hardest of all - the adoption of her youngest child.

Sharon told Channel 4 News of the moment of her farewell meeting with her youngest child. "I wasn't allowed to say goodbye, I wasn't allowed to say you know I love you, I miss you...I had to go into the room with my four year old little girl, give her a cuddle just act normal....when I came out of there, Social Services told me that I wouldn't see her again.

But she never gave up fighting the experts' opinions of her and in an exceptionally rare case won her daughter back from the brink of adoption and gradually regained contact with the three boys also placed into care by the courts.

Debate

The debate around the role and quality of experts on the family courts is welcomed by SOME experts themselves.

Dr Shazad Amin, a consultant psychiatrist and an expert witness for the family courts, told Channel 4 News that there are improvements to be made in the way experts are used and the quality of their work is scrutinised. But he also told us that experts are only one part of a complex process and that their role should not be seen in isolation.

"It is not the role of the expert to decide whether or not the child is removed or sent back to a birth family or is put up for adoption. That decision is solely for the judge," says Dr Amin. "A whole plethora of information is used by the judge to decide whether or not a child goes back to their parents or is put up for adoption."

Meanwhile, the Government says that reforming family justice and child protection is a critical priority. It wants to speed-up the process and ensure that it is focused on the needs of children - and it wants to improve the way experts are used as well and is working with others such as the Legal Services Commission, experts groups and local authorities to develop quality standards for them..

But any reform comes too late for Sharon as she tries to rebuild her life with her children. "I was ...punished very, very badly," she told Channel 4 News. "I lost my children for mistakes that the experts felt that I have made during my parenting and I'd like to ask the experts um what's going to happen to them," The experts have "absolutely ruined a whole family... and I'd like to know ...where's the justice."

crashdoll · 30/11/2012 19:46

Stop spamming!! And you're ignoring me, where did you get the stats from?

sunshine401 · 30/11/2012 19:47

What a load of rubbish really!!!

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:48

which stats are you on about ?

crashdoll · 30/11/2012 19:50

Every year, 200 mothers or fathers are jailed for ?contempt of court? for breaking this silence ? while the same family courts request the removal of 225 children each week, 97 per cent of whom are never returned to their families.

WilsonFrickett · 30/11/2012 19:52

Oh god, I just can't engage on this thread anymore. Secret, you are blinkered and dangerous. Your grandson was taken because his father was violent. Your dd proved DH could protect him and he was handed back. The system worked.

I understand you are angry but I can't keep arguing when you continue to scare manger and spam. I'm out.

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:55

thats in a report thats on the channel 4 website

crashdoll · 30/11/2012 19:56

Can you link please?

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:56

so all the papers and tv programs that report on the wrong doings of the family court are all liars ????????????????

is that what you are all saying ?????????????????

sunshine401 · 30/11/2012 19:57

Can you link all your posts??
I mean by putting the webpage links on here. As I think if someone is writing all this rubbish it needs to be sorted out as it is false.

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 19:58

Every year, 200 mothers or fathers are jailed for ?contempt of court? for breaking this silence ? while the same family courts request the removal of 225 children each week, 97 per cent of whom are never returned to their families.

this is from the link below with regards to lucy allen who was a tory mp and who also used to work on the fostering panal .

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2121886/The-experts-break-families-The-terrifying-story-prospective-MP-branded-unfit-mother-experts-whod-met--nightmare-shared-families.html

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles · 30/11/2012 19:59

I have a personality disorder, recurrent depressive disorder, obsessive neurosis regarding harming or harm coming to me and my children, inflammatory joint disease, and kidney disease in one kidney, and been deemed to be fit to parent because I accept treatment, actively seek out support and engage with social services in a positive manner.

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 20:00

i dont know how to do the link so you can just click on it.

but if you copy and paste the links i put on you can find the said story that i mention.

all the stories that i have put links on cant all be false

SirBoobAlot · 30/11/2012 20:02

Media is a business. The two you keep linking to, Channel Four and the Fail are especially renowned for liking to stir up trouble. No one is going to watch a programme that says "We found everything to be perfect". People want their to be issues, they want to watch or read something that says how terrible these people are.

And so, just like any business, there is supply to meet a demand.

No, the system isn't perfect. But all of the cases you have linked to are concerning for several reasons. Right now you are too emotionally invested, you won't possibly see that what has been done has been in the best interest of every child involved - including your own grandson.

They are not child snatchers, they are not malicious liars, they are not people who enjoy pulling families apart. Sometimes they have to.

I really hope you can see somewhere down the road why your grandson was removed until they were certain it was safe for him.

crashdoll · 30/11/2012 20:02

LOL at just because it's in the media, it's true! It's the daily wail!!!!

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 20:03

so when the dispatchers did a show on it they were lieing too ?

mysecretworld · 30/11/2012 20:04

i suppose the eastenders story line about baby lexi is totally wrong aswell ? so why are the bbc not being sued for misrepresentation????

MrsDeVere · 30/11/2012 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crashdoll · 30/11/2012 20:05

Also your quote looks silly taken out of context! If you break the law, you pay the price.