childrens centre attracting the wrong kind of mothers

[Morph2]

i'm not BU as i'm not too bothered (more disappointed) about the decision but others are very angry. Local surestart (only built last year) ran a group for walking to school age every week. Has been scrapped due to funding issues (ok i understand that its a recession after all).

HV unofficially told my friend the decision was because the session was "attracting the wrong kind of mothers". We've started attending another session run by the council which is abit of a trek away (they have started to charge a £1 a session but its worth it, i drive so i can get there), and when i filled out my new started form i had to tick (for monitoring purposes) if i was in one of the groups they specified, i wasn't so i didn't tick, just thinking maybe if enough people don't tick this session will be stopped too :(

Do middle class parents not need support then?

The person I know who has struggled the most with being a new mum is also the wealthiest person I know, big country house (we live in rural east anglia with high levels of deprivation), top of the range new range rover, gorgeous expensive clothes, but she was really socially isolated having just moved to te area, a bit neurotic which can get worse and worse if you spend too much time alone, and has lost so much confidence. she got a lot of support from health visitors and did go to baby yoga and music at her sure start centre where she was often the only one so they cancelled the sessions. She is much happier now she has hooked up with the nct brigade. Isolation can affect anyone.

V interesting thread. We have just started sending DS1 to a cc on the advice of our hv to help with his language development. We probably are a target family because my first language is not English, but DH and I are both lawyers: playing with words is our daily bread. Does that mean we are not within the target group anymore? Does sending DS with his nanny make him less of a targeted child? Yes if the target is based on social deprivation, probably not if it is based on having more than one language at home...

I think the middle classes, in general, have resources to look after themselves - and in particular aspirations for their children - that the target families do not.

yy the middle classes have nct, for a start

I wonder if the 'target' groups are put off by the form filling. I used a CC for the first time recently (to access a specific health service) and was told to fill in a 10 page document with questions from the amount of my salary to my religion / lack of, almost down to the colour of my knickers.

It also included a statement to confirm I was happy for staff to monitor the behaviour of my children and the way I interracted with them.

It struck me as patronising and intrusive... if I were a teenage mum I wouldn't want to sit there with a load of nosy busybodies 'monitoring' me.

I haven't been back, but they now email me several times a week to tell me whats on, even though I am probably not one of their 'target' group.

No one had said that "middle classes" din't need support and many have said that it is good to have a mix . However if too many "middle class " types go it will prevent the families with the most need going , thus can literally be a matter if life and death for the children .

When I ran my group I did very little paperwork in front of patents for that reason . If they kept coming it was something that could be done at a later date .

Yes I totally agree Naice
there are some desperate families out there, children who have utterly bleak lives

Without meaning to tar a whole group of mothers, I must say that when I was a young, single working class mum in a relatively posh area most of the local 1 O'clock clubs and play groups were frequented mostly my Yummy Mummies. I was mostly ignored by all of them, and in the end going to the 1o'clock club became an isolating, lonely experience - just me, my son, my book and acute PND for company.

During one session I was sitting on a bench next to another bench with three women on it. They were having a chat about single mums. Most of their comments were very derogatory; in fact I'd say probably they were just not very nice women full stop, and it wasn't anything to do with class. However, after that I started travelling into the 'rougher' side of town, and the local soft play sessions.

There I discovered lots of warm, chatty mums, who were more down to earth. There were a few yummy mummies there too, but they were lovely. It really helped with my PND.

I think the reason those who are poor don't tend to use the local sure starts is purely because they tend to prioritise different things in terms of child raising, and also because of confidence. And when you are confronted by lots of 'posh mums' it can be hard to feel included, and confident attending. Its a bit like going to a club that's only for those who have been invited. If that is what happens, then closing the Sure Start is best IMO as the money should be spent on those who have a chronic need.

My experience of being a young, single unemployed Mum going to groups populated by mc yummy mummies:

They would look at me in horror when they realised I was young enough to be their DD
They talked about their weddings whilst I stared at my bare finger
They talked about fertility treatment and planning their DCs ie age gaps vs declining fertility, whilst I looked at my accidental DC
They talked about cvs vs amnio et al, again irrelevant to me
They talked about it raining after putting washing on the line, no garden here only wet washing permantly on every radiator
They never took sugar in their tea so I'd always have to go and get my own
They talked about books like 'room' 'Kevin' Jodie picolt etc that I had no interest in ever reading
They showed each other photos of their summer hols and weekend euro city trips, whereas my passport expired unnoticed
They would sit and exchange their numbers in front of me but not ask me then the next week talk about their exclusive meet ups

Hell, if I wasn't depressed before I went there I sure was afterwards!

I used to work at a SureStart centre. Used to be I could work with any pregnant women/new mums. Then I got told I could only work with those on benefits, teenage mums and mums with mental health problems.

Many families can't afford NCT,I couldn't 8 years ago and I suspect more can't now.From what I've heard NCT isn't always the most supportive place if you're struggling as a mum.I have a couple of friends doing NCT and they didn't enjoy it felt intimidated and had absolutely no support with their feeding or birth choices.

Interesting thread, especially for those running the groups I'd have thought. I agree totally with Peacocklady that the work of supporting families at an early age and changing the path they take is a brilliant aim.

It's obvious that need does not always relate to postcodes (which is how public health usually define your level of deprivation)

It's also obvious that you can set centres up and not everyone will access them....but there are those who would but are not welcome because they don't tick targets

Paperwork and the thought of being patronised or supervised put some families off

Some people hold prejudice against families from other backgrounds. Some are honest about it and others try and hide it.

I have heard what Vickles is saying repeated loads of times and in reverse. It is fairly well quoted that the main advantage of NCT is to meet with 'like minded' parents. Isn't Yummie Mummie meant as a bit of a slur? albeit a politer slur!)

Also re NCT I hadn't heard of it pre the birth of my first dc and didn't join.I found I needed the support after the birth and in the toddler years by which time the group would have turned into a clique.

At our local centre they run the only twins club.The only other twins club was milers away and expensive.I didn't have a car or the cash to join.The local one would have been such a support for me.I don'y get how leaving a mum to struggle when she has help on her doorstep is a good thing.

Like it or not, it IS an issue.
I work with a lot of CC and they are in danger of losing their funding for certain activities (and never getting that bit of their budget back) because they are not reaching the right demographic.

You cannot get on any yoga, baby massage, baby signing classes because they are immediately full up. There is a grape vine (or should I say Iphone line) and the places get taken right away.

Why would you pay £15 for a session (even if you can afford it) when you can get a session for £3?

It takes longer to persuade less mc mothers to attend this stuff. It is also very off putting for them to turn up and find a room full of people who all know each other and appear to have nothing in common.

I am a confident and fairly articulate person but I have been to a few groups where I have been totally ignored - blanked despite my best efforts. I just didnt fit.

So audit time comes along, the stats are checked and the budget adjusted accordingly. Lets face it - why should we be subsidising yoga for affluent families?

Its the pointy elbow thing - those with the resources and confident will get what they want.

Of course MC mums deserve as much help as everyone else. I also think there should be a mix of social economic groups. Despite being a bit of a chav I prefer to attend groups where I meet a mix of people.

This is not a new thing. When my older DCs were young the subsidised groups in Islington had exactly the same problems.

Interesting. As a first time mum in a very middle class neighbourhood I was quite taken aback when a representative of sure start appeared at our local nhs antenatal class and encouraged us all to sign up. My first thought was 'what are you targeting us for? We are a group of middle class professionals who all intend to breast feed, we don't need extra, publicly funded support. Why not save the resources for those areas where more parents are likely to benefit?'

It is clear sure start has changed from something targeted to those who could benefit from support to ensure their children don't fall behind early (a really good idea, based on solid research) to a general children's service, that relies on as many people signing up as possible to justify it's funding.

So, if your sure start is responding to funding cuts by prioritising the services that are needed most over those that are predominantly a nice extra for those who can find support elsewhere, I'd say that's a really sensible decision. I'm all for targeting most need over most use, if by people who don't need).

Post from Mists and margery are sad. I can hear those women. I know some of them. What a huge shame they feel the need to be superior. Isn't that what happens on here often though?

The discussions about b/f vs f/f, working vs not working, benefits etc. Wish people could swop lives for a short while just to have more empathy

Maybe they're running the wrong courses,I couldn't have given a flying f* re baby massage and yoga to be frank and I'm sure plenty other mums in need wouldn't.

At ours they did fab play sessions during the holidays with superb ideas,courses on budgeting,healthy cooking,parenting,singing groups,twin groups etc.Now surely the sharp elbowed rich mums with only yoga to think off wouldn't give a thank you for the above.

Sorry but I don't think yoga or massage is a good use of money if budget is tight.

If there's one thing that will completely polarise and undermine society, it's forcing working class mums to use one lot of facilities, provided by the state, where they are effectively told how to bring up their children according to some sort of ideal about what children ought to be like, while middle class mums go to private facilities where they have a lot more say and influence, and can choose their parenting model.

Any Sure Start centre worthy of its name should encourage all families to attend, as it's only by mixing up social groups that a stable and mutually supportive society can be rebuilt and sustained.

Dump the ghettos.

mrshef thats a bit of a sterotype. I am 'a mother in need' and I am interested in yoga, baby massage and baby signing.

If yoga, baby massage and baby signing are proved to be beneficial for mc babies, why would they not be so for wc ones?

Should we just stick to the tea in a bottle school of baby calming as is our place?

What courses do you suggest? They already do debt managment and job seeking. I dont owe any money and I have a job, when I didnt have a job it was because I couldnt work.

My life can seem spectacularly shite at times and spending half an hour with my baby, one to one, in a calming environment seems like heaven to me.

Why should that not be available to everyone?

I think you will find twin groups also over subscribed by mothers able to travel in.

And I can cook healthy meals on a budget too.

When my DD was born I really struggled with my DS's behaviour. I would never have admitted it outloud to anyone but I suspect I had PND. DS has since started on the road to an ASD diagnosis and they are looking at ADHD too. I never went out because DS was so volatile and I was scared of what he would do.
One day I went to get DD weighed and DS did kick off. The HV team swung into action, I was whisked onto a small room with a cup of tea and they sat and talked with me for ages. They then suggested I join a group at the local surestart centre and one of them came with me. At that group I was welcomed and made to feel I was not alone. When the Surestart people had watched DS for a bit they suggested he went to nursery for a couple of sessions but he wasn't old enough for a free place. I couldn't afford to pay despite looking OK from the outside - we had NO disposable income while I was on Mat leave. They then got me a grant to fund 2 sessions a week. As aprt of the deal I went to stay and play once a week and a music session once a week as well as the bf support group. DS hated the music session with a passion!
On paper I have a good income and a nice house with a garden and I suspect now I would not be welcome at the local CC as I am not in a target group. Which is a shame as I suspect that Surestart may just have saved my sanity. My depression form did not show up my feelings as I knew the 'right' answers to give..........

Our cc is in the middle of what used to be a huge council estate, there are now a lot of people who own their homes and/or have great jobs etc what would be seen as middle class threre are also plenty of typical council estate families the only thig that dictates who uses the centre is postcode you have to live in the area. There is a village around a mile away which has a similar divide in the classes however I would say there are more upper middle class but also pretty much the same proportin of lower class, as they do not live in the postcode catchment area for the centre the people who do are given priority. Everybody in the city is welcome to the cc no matter where they live council estate or not but priority is for the people who live by the centre. There is always a mix at the groups I have been to but also a divide I usually end up sitting in the middle of the two groups. The only criticism I have of our cc is the lack of groups for babies between 6-18months there are plenty for newborns and toddlers but not really anything for this agegroup.