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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU to be shocked by these American views on women's bodily autonomy?

187 replies

WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 01:41

If you have time, please read this thread.

boards.askmen.com/showthread.php?130715-Then-End-of-a-relationship-before-and-after-an-Abortion&p=1311666#post1311666

The OP is a boy who regrets not supporting his girlfriend through her abortion.

The thread turns into an abortion debate around page two. There is one female poster making very valid agreements about a woman's right to make choices about her own body and is being flamed by the others.

One male poster actually says "So fucking what if it's her body?"
The worst part is that the women themselves are not speaking in support of a woman's right to choose:(

There are repeated references to how depressed men feel when their SO aborts, but nobody stops to think about how women feel when they are forced to give birth and endure 37-42 weeks of pregnancy. I completely sympathise with men who may feel helpless in such a scenario but I can't really support the idea of a man being able to prevent a woman from terminating a pregnancy.

I'm all for couples making decisions together, but surely the final decision about an abortion should lie with the woman?

OP posts:
bogeyface · 02/05/2012 01:50

I am afraid that YABU.

To be shocked, that is. Nothing I read on there shocked me at all because i have seen and heard it all before and noted that it is generally men kicking off about abortion, not women. And the women that join in are usually those for whom an unplanned pg would not be the end of their world.

But YANBU to be incredibly saddened that this is an acceptable way to think in some circles :(

LapsedPacifist · 02/05/2012 02:21

Please come over to the Feminist discussion thread. You might not feel so isolated.

flyingspaghettimonster · 02/05/2012 02:42

I have sympathy for the men who wanted the baby that was aborted. I am coming at that from the point of view of a woman who has had an abortion in the usa, when I didn't want it. my abortion experience left me feeling that unless there is a good reason for a woman to abort while in a current relationship or marriage, the abortion should be a mutual decision. It is disgusting to talk of women as though we are just vessels, but it is also heartbreaking to lose a wanted child to abortion, so there should be some right for the father to have a say too...

NovackNGood · 02/05/2012 02:55

No man has the right to stop a woman having an abortion. Nor should he have a right to be consulted.

SodoffBaldrick · 02/05/2012 03:22

It is tragic if one half of a couple wants to go through with a pregnancy and the other doesn't, but I'm afraid that in a civilised world, there should be no rights for the father IF the consequence is loss of autonomy over one's body for the woman.

OP - unfortunately, I am not shocked by those views at all sadly, they are very widespread. :(

SodoffBaldrick · 02/05/2012 03:26

And flyingspaghettimonster - sorry to pick you out... but your personal experience should have no bearing whatsoever on how and why abortion is carried out for the rest of womankind.

I had an abortion in my younger years and now following on from having children of my own, there is no way I would go through it again. But I would never in million years deign to decide what is best for the rest of womankind.

ShadowsCollideWithPeople · 02/05/2012 04:03

Jesus Fucking Christ. That thread left me shaking, shaking with anger. So much hideous, misogynistic bullshit. Grrrrr.

Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 04:15

It left me completely shaking with anger too.

I could not believe that certain people were going on about how traumatised men feel and how depressed they may get while callously dismissing how HUGELY traumatising it can be when you're forced to stay pregnant and give birth.

I don't even know where to begin. There was the same callous disregard in that thread for the health risks associated with pregnancy and the possibility of maternal death. It sickens me that a society can place such little emphasis on a woman's body and her pain, so as to think it's OK to force her to something with her body that she doesn't want to do because the man wants it. What's next? It's OK for a husband to force his wife to have sex because if she doesn't he'll get frustrated?!

OP posts:
Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 04:21

Let me explain where I'm at. In any decent, loving relationship these decisions will automatically not be unilateral. In general, I have nothing against men being included in the discussion regarding what to do about an unplanned pregnancy, and most of them are included anyway.

BUT, to imply that men should have a legal right to stop a woman from terminating a pregnancy or a legal right to be 'consulted' is misogynistic bullshit.

To disregard the fact that the fetus is in her body by saying "It's his baby too" is astounding. Yes, it is his baby. But he will not endure 40 odd weeks of pregnancy, nor will he go through the pain and health risks of childbirth.
Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

OP posts:
TapirBackRider · 02/05/2012 05:29

YANBU - I have a lot of american f/b acquaintances via a recovery group.

They're currently talking about how some political figures in the US are campaigning for Fetal Personhood rights, so that the moment you become pregnant your rights are overridden by the rights of the fetus you carry; no abortions allowed for any reason, all miscarriages and stillbirths investigated as a possible criminal offense....

Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 05:51

TapirBackRider

Yes, I heard about it too!! Isn't it appalling? I cannot believe they could even suggest that.
Can a law like that actually come through? What's happening to the world :(

OP posts:
DeathByChocolate01 · 02/05/2012 06:52

I haven't slept and my brain's a bit fuzzy so I can't find the right way to phrase this, but I am confused by the way the people on that thread are just focusing on the 40 weeks of pregnancy and the birth... what do they expect will happen after the birth? They will find themselves responsible for an entire human being, and I would not want to be the child born under those circumstances. :(

MadamFolly · 02/05/2012 08:03

:( Its horrible isn't it, I hope the UK dosen't go the same way.

minimisschief · 02/05/2012 08:14

i can see their point. i can see the opposite point.

Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 09:23

deathbychocolat

I read the thread again and I think the point was related to body autonomy. The repeated emphasis on the pregnancy and birth was to drive home the fact that it's no joke to do all that. I think people were looking at it from a purely 50-50 point of view which looks at the fact that it's the man's baby too. But the reality is, that it isnt a 50-50 situation because the physical aspect is all the woman's responsibility. Men who want to be able to stop women from getting an abortion often disregard that fact.

I agree with your point about it being awful for a child to come into a hostile environment, but then that's the problem with Republican America. They care little about what happens to the woman or even the child, they focus on the fetus.

OP posts:
Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 09:31

What shocked me was the people who thought it was completely acceptable for the boy to have left his girlfriend to deal with the abortion alone. Indeed, they thought she should ask him for forgiveness for putting her needs above his by getting the abortion. Shock Hmm

Of course, no mention of how selfish it is for men to force pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood on a woman who is not ready to face it all.

OP posts:
Softlysoftly · 02/05/2012 09:32

Have you seen the "continuos pregnancy" law. I can't remember which state it is (probably a redneck one) but they have changed the law to fit with how you work out weeks of pg, so you are pregnant 2 weeks before conception. What that means is they can reduce the legal time for abortion by two weeks sneakily, what it also means is that obviously every woman is pregnant from two weeks into her period surely? (whether she is or isn't in reality) until the next period starts.

Combine that with feotal rights you get a situation where women could technically be prevented from smoking, drinking, dangerous sports anything really that could damage this imaginary baby.

Original poster
WhatTheHellJustHappened · 02/05/2012 09:53

softkysoftly

Shock Shock

They can't be serious! Seriously what's wrong with Americans? I don't mean to be offensive but I'm horrified at certain opinions that come from "the land of the free". Hmm

OP posts:
somewherewest · 02/05/2012 10:06

Very few people really do believe that a pregnant woman has full autonomy though. If we did abortion would be legal at any stage and for any reason. So the debate is really over what restrictions wider society can legitimately impose on the individual. I guess personally I don't see any logically defensible middle ground between a complete 'pro-life' position and a completely unrestricted right to abort.

Chandon · 02/05/2012 10:21

softly, but it is NOT an imaginary baby, is it?

I am not sure I think women should have the right to abort at any time, I think many would agree that aborting a baby at 39 weeks gestation would be...murder?

or not?

I am pro choice, but I also think the fact that in the UK and the US late abortions are allowed (is it 20 weeks?) makes me feel very uncomfortable.

I am also very uncomfortable by the fact that at an abortion at 24 weeks, sometimes it goes "wrong" and the baby comes out alive. If you kill it THEN, it would be murder.

I think it is not a clear cut issue.

You cannot say women should be allowed whatever they want with their body (bungee jumping at 37 weeks? injecting heroin at 38? Abortion at 39?), or do you?

Then again, the idea of a girl who was raped, or careless or unlucky being forced to go through with the birth is traumatic as well.

IMO, abortion should be legal but until about 12 weeks.

somewherewest · 02/05/2012 10:24

I guess the question then is why 12 weeks? I know people who had miscarriages earlier than that and very definitely feel they lost a baby. Any cut off point is probably fairly arbitrary.

somewherewest · 02/05/2012 10:25

PS just wanted to add that ultimately the abortion debate comes down to how we define personhood, which is why I'm glad there is a debate. I'd be a little worried about a society which was too gung-ho over ending anything that could be defined as human life.

NovackNGood · 02/05/2012 10:32

A foetus is only viable at 24 weeks with a huge amount of medical intervention and even then the chance of that baby then being 100% is in single digits. Of course a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her body. It is her body.

Chandon · 02/05/2012 10:41

Novack, look at this then:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7646540/Baby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html

is it really that clear cut to you? There are quite a few cases like this. Sad

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