AIBU to be shocked by these American views on women's bodily autonomy?

[WhatTheHellJustHappened]

If you have time, please read this thread.

boards.askmen.com/showthread.php?130715-Then-End-of-a-relationship-before-and-after-an-Abortion&p=1311666#post1311666

The OP is a boy who regrets not supporting his girlfriend through her abortion.

The thread turns into an abortion debate around page two. There is one female poster making very valid agreements about a woman's right to make choices about her own body and is being flamed by the others.

One male poster actually says "So fucking what if it's her body?"
The worst part is that the women themselves are not speaking in support of a woman's right to choose:(

There are repeated references to how depressed men feel when their SO aborts, but nobody stops to think about how women feel when they are forced to give birth and endure 37-42 weeks of pregnancy. I completely sympathise with men who may feel helpless in such a scenario but I can't really support the idea of a man being able to prevent a woman from terminating a pregnancy.

I'm all for couples making decisions together, but surely the final decision about an abortion should lie with the woman?

For a man its a two step process to parenthood. Have sex, conceive, become a parent.
For a woman its three steps, have sex, conceive, gestate, become a parent.
Either party has the right to interrupt that process at each of their own stages. Options uncommon to both are abstinence and contraception, and the gestato has the right to interrupt that process also. I'm all for people being responsible enough to take charge of their fertility.
We should empower men to love their bodies an properly evaluate and respect their own powers.

I think CrispyCod is trying to say that men should be able to opt out of child support and visitation for a baby they never wanted. Am I right?

Just an FYI- in the thread I posted in the OP, the one pro choice poster is being flamed and has been banned temporarily for speaking in support of abortion rights:(:( We live in a scary world.

Vasectomy aside crispy it is STILL a fact that men who do not want children should not have sex. If they are so worried about it then there are measures they can take without infringing on women's bodies even more than they have been infringed upon historically.

Men who don't mnd taking a risk with a woman should be prepared to pay for their "mistakes"

Child support is a social and welfare issue though.

It is not in the interest of society to say that men do not have to support any offspring.

From the child's POV (the person the money is for) they don't care where it comes from as long as they are clothed housed fed etc.

Someone has to pay for the children (it is unethical not to) and whether that is the govt or the parents makes no odds to the child. Do you see what I mean? It's only the fathers that are asked to do it as that is what our society has decided is the model to follow to attempt to keep children out of poverty.

In point of fact I think that in the UK men can get away without paying for their offspring if they wish fairly easily (having seen threads with stats about CSA etc).

I haven't read all the posts because I don't have time right now, but I do feel very strongly that any man should be able (at the point he is informed of a pregnancy) to refuse to support that child, and I also believe that his opinion should be taken into account when a woman decided whether to continue with a pregnancy or not. (Obviously disregarding a case of rape). I also, sadly, believe that is unenforcable as it would lead to backstreet abortions but I wish it could be enforced. If a man makes it clear from the start that he wants nothing to do with a baby and doesn't want the financial implications then the woman can make an informed choice about whether to continue or not.
To "Thehouseonthecorner" your arguement that a man shoud be prepared to live with their mistakes must surely carry forward onto the woman. Why should a man be held responsible when a woman isn't? She has just as much chance of saying no, taking precautions etc, etc.

debsbear

Let me try to understand this. You think men should be able to stop women from getting abortions. You also think they should be able to refuse to pay child support.

So what choice does the woman get here? If he tells her to have the baby she must do that against her will, and if he washes his hands off the pregnancy she has to deal with that on her own.

Can you not see how fucked up that is?

Oh and why should a man be held responsible for birth control? Well, mostly he isn't.
It is the women who use pills, nova rings, patches, shots, IUDs, IUIs (which come with several health risks btw).
Of course both genders should be careful, but if they aren't they must be prepared for the consequences. This applies to men as well.

I am appalled by the passed bill in Texas. Nobody would be inserting anything I didn't want into my vagina. Surely that's rape/sexual assault?

Fucking hell.

Whatthehellhappened
Why not? If she isn't prepared to bring up a child alone then she should have kept her legs crossed. I don't think she should be forced to go through with a pregnancy but more because it's unenforcable (as I said) than because it's against her rights

it is STILL a fact that men who do not want children should not have sex.

Really?

Debsbear

Please explain to me why you think women don't have rights over their bodies? Are you a woman? Have you ever been pregnant?

Your argument is that women who don't want to bring up children alone shouldn't have sex. Well, my argument is that similarly men who don't want to pay child support should keep it in their pants.

It's ridiculous to imply that every person who has sex should be prepared to bring up children.

He does not get a choice because he already HAS one! If he does not want child with a woman then he should not have sex with her...there is an inherent risk for all parties. A woman may have an unwanted pregnancy...a man may Father a baby.

This doesn't make sense.
The woman DOES have a choice. Both ways.
If she wants the baby - she has it and the man pays child support
If she doesn't want it - she aborts it

The man DOES NOT have a choice. Either way.
If he wants the baby - the woman can still abort it and he loses his baby
If he doesn't want it - the woman can still have it and he has to pay support

I don't see any way of making it better for the man in the case of him wanting it (though I think it's tragic and really horrible for him) but I don't see why he should have to pay for a baby he doesn't want and he would abort, had he the biological function to do so.

See my post earlier about child support being a social issue.

The child doesn't care who is paying for it as long as it is loved, housed, fed etc.

It is society who say that men should pay to support children that they father in the UK (although much of the time they don't).

"Why not? If she isn't prepared to bring up a child alone then she should have kept her legs crossed. I don't think she should be forced to go through with a pregnancy but more because it's unenforcable (as I said) than because it's against her rights"

Outrageous.

Of course forced pregnancy and childbirth are against a woman's basic rights.
Pregnancy and childbirth can kill you, leave you with long term damage.
Bloody hell.

And at the same time as saying that women should be forced to continue with pregnancy, the idea that women breed without any input from men. Woman-hating balderdash. And I don't bandy the "woman hating" thing around very often but that post is just outrageous.

How about if a MAN doesn't want to be a father then he should keep it in his pants?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

You have made me really angry.

This little slut should have kept her legs crossed eh?

Shame she got her abortion but a good thing she was thrown out of her religion.

Would have been so much better if she had had to carry the twins to term and give birth to them, that would have made her think twice before opening her legs eh. With any luck it might have killed her, that would have made some other little tarts think twice eh.

Fukksake.

Why do some people HATE the female sex so much?

It's palpable in some posts on this topic, it's horrendous, it makes me feel sick and angry.

How are women ever going to gain equality if people who rape them get applause and trophies and others think they should keep their "legs shut" if they don't want to endure forced pregnancy and birth.

And this is in the UK, a supposedly modern, fair democracy.

@ debs and manic- bullshit.
Please see my previous post about the steps to parenthood and each partner taking control of OWN fertility.
Sex comes with a risk of making half a baby. People's eyes should be opened to that fact.

I know sq.yet we're the wrong'uns for noticing,

I am feeling the rage here.

i read on the last page that in one state they want to make it law that they wont perform an abortion even if a woman is going to die if the pregnancy continues? so then the mother and the baby die, is that some warped sick twisted punishment on the mother, you cant carry your baby to term so you can die as well?!! ffs

and ultimately if a man doesnt want a baby he doesnt have to have sex, its a choice, yes womens choice goes a step further in that she CAN have sex and then have an abortion, but thats biology for you, the woman is the one that gets pregnant.

i somehow think if it were MEN that had babies this wouldnt even be debated, they could do what the fuck they liked!

Sinicalsanta - it isn't bullshit.

Yes, sex comes with the possibility of half a baby. Both sexes need to know that

But a woman CAN undo that

A man CANNOT

manicinsomniac

So what do you want people to do about basic biology?

Don't forget that everything comes with pros and cons. When the time comes to have children, men get become parents without risking their lives and dealing with the possibility of long term health risks and a permanently changed body. So let's not act like it's some kind boon from heaven and women have all these great choices. We may have the choice to end pregnancy because we carry the fetus, but let me assure you we pay the price for that benefit.

I don't expect people to do anything about it!

But, as things are this way, I understand and can sympathise with the pain a man must experience when the mother of a baby they hae made together decides to get rid of it. I think about how I would feel in their position and it makes me feel sick with horror. Therefore I can understand and forgive comments that are msogynistic in nature - because I understand that they are probably coming from a place of deep and justified pain.

manicinsomniac

Or maybe they're coming from a neanderthal desire to control women? Maybe they're coming from a place where there is no importance for a woman's bodily autonomy?

Would be as sympathetic towards a woman who had been forced by her husband to carry a fetus to term and birth it even if she didn't want to? Or a woman who was forced to abort a much wanted baby because her boyfriend can't be arsed to pay child support?

You know what makes me sick with horror? That we live in a society that thinks it's ok to have men demean and hate women for making independent choices about their bodies and lives.