Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This has made me so angry..working mums, we are the devils work

391 replies

sh1t · 26/04/2012 19:50

I read this, and wish I hadn't

paid strangers to look after our kids

I sort of get the sentiment behind it, but the tone of smuggery just irks me, and the post is so skewed to mums, what about dads. The author claims she is a feminist, but I can't see it.

OP posts:
ColinFirthsGirth · 27/04/2012 12:14

duelling - You don't expect the government to subsidise your decision to drop down to 4 days a week? Even if you will be worse off I take it you can afford to drop a day?

It would have been very, very hard for husband to find a better paid job in this area at the time. There was also no overtime available. So, it isn't as simple as saying it is the working partners responsibility. Maybe the government should make all companies pay a living wage instead. My husband works as hard as many people and works full time and has a degree and is very experienced and qualified but unfortunately some people don't get paid the going rate for their line of work. That isn't his fault in my opinion. He works as hard as others I know on £50/60 grand. In my opinion tax credits go some way to topping up his wage to what it should be anyway for his line of work.

Living on less than £16,000 is hard and even with tax credits it is still not much at all to live on. It was my decision to stay at home but we still had to get by on not much money at all to do this. Just think the government should stop trying to penalise low paid workers. If I had have worked the tax payer still would have subsidised my childrens childcare anyway. So don't see the difference?

jellybeans · 27/04/2012 12:22

I agree with many of ColinFirthsGirth's posts. DF also has some good points.

Clegg does have an agenda about SAHP. He would prefer a Swedish style system of universal childcare. He has made many comments about 1950's housewives and not good comments. It isn't hard to find them. Improve childcare-yes. Make everyone use childcare-no. There should be a choice, that is the point. I personally feel that lone parents should be able to SAH until school age and then volunteer when it fits in. I don't agree with parents of young children being forced into work.

Having been both a SAHM and WOHM, I can see both 'sides'. My DD1 had excellent childcare but she still hated it. They were very mature, all mums themselves, and didn't accept young babies. It was only after I had stayed at home that I realised what I wanted was to SAH. Prior to that I never even thought of becoming a SAHM because I was socially conditioned to thinking that work/careers was the only goal in life.

TheMule · 27/04/2012 12:50

Hi Everyone
I am the person who wrote the Huffington Post article.

(pause. wait for shower of stones to cease. continue.)

It's great to read all of these responses and of course I'm sorry that many of you felt angry about what I had to say... unfortunately, this is a discussion which it is pretty impossible to have without people feeling criticised in their choices.

I can't respond to everything that has been said here but I will have a go at a few points.

As has been pointed out by a few of you, the article was a letter to Nick Clegg. If I'm 'attacking' anyone, it's him, not working mothers. I feel constantly annoyed that leading policy makers don't seem to acknowledge the importance of the first 2-4 years of life. Clegg's suggestion that two year olds could be 'educated' is a good example of this. This shows a total lack of understanding of child development and needs. But comments such as Clegg's are 'anti women', 'anti mothers', because they make women feel that their time at home is not time well spent, and even perhaps inadequate that they are not 'educating', 'stimulating' their babies and small children enough.

Women talk about being bored with childcare and say that they are not using their brains. But perhaps some of this feeling of boredom comes from the sense that what they are doing is not of any value? And that they can easily be replaced by someone less academically qualified. But if we really start to understand child development and psychology, perhaps we can see that what we are doing when we spend time with our children is actually quite complex, fascinating, and valuable beyond measure.

There is always a lot of talk about choice and if women here feel that their decision to return to work was truly a free one in every sense of the word then I applaud it. But in a culture that gives so many negative messages about motherhood and time spent with children, we perhaps have to consider how this backdrop informs our choices, at a deep level.

There wasn't space in the article to cover every base and every choice. I used the word mother but of course if we want to be PC we can say 'primary care giver', this could be an adoptive parent, a grandparent, a dad, or anyone else who loves the child, is not doing it for money, and is with them for the long haul. Age is also a factor - a small baby in full time nursery care is a different proposition to a 2 year old who goes to a one to one childminder a couple of days a week.

But the bottom line is that babies and small children need focused attention from someone who loves them. I do like to think of myself as a feminist - I seem to remember Germaine Greer defined this once as being a woman first, before anything else. I'm interested in the idea of empowering women to reclaim motherhood, and to see childcare as a challenging, stimulating and important job. Clegg's policy and words are detrimental to women and mothers, in my view. I also think we need to consider children's rights here as well. We often hear the phrase ' a happy mother = a happy child', but this is never reversed - a happy child = a happy mother. Perhaps we need to think more holistically about our choices and see that a handful of years taking time out from a career to do the incredibly important work of raising our children, is valuable to society, and valuable to our children.

Well, I will run for cover now.
x

Here's another post I wrote about the value of a mother:
mamamule.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/reclaiming-motherhood-what-is-value-of.html
(yes, i write a blog, yes, i do it when my kids are asleep, etc) x

SeaHouses · 27/04/2012 12:59

Hi, The Mule. I agree with your post.

I am sure there are many parents who would genuinely rather work than be a SAHM.

But I went back to work because I felt under massive pressure (none of it financial; my DH was in a good job) from pretty much everyone apart from my own mum to go back to work. People did make out that being a SAHM was worthless/I was scrounging off my DH/was lazy, selfish etc.

I am certain that the poor quality childcare my children received before and after school from the age of 3 onwards has been of detriment to them. The financial advantage to my family of me working has been very little as so much of it was eaten up by childcare costs anyway. But at least I haven't been 'lazy.'

I would have had more children if it wasn't for the attitude towards SAHM. I feel really quite bitter that I haven't had more children. People even seem quite negative about women going on maternity leave.

OliveandJim · 27/04/2012 12:59

Just read the article, she obviously hasn't read Oliver James (How not to F* The Up), all that matters is that the baby/child is looked after by someone loving and caring. A depressed mother will do a worst job than an attentive childminder. Also, it teaches the child to build new relationships... Good childcare implies your child "loves" his /her carer. Some mothers are better off working as a paid stranger will do a better job than them, some others are better off looking after their own children and stopping working. It's not one size fits all, it depends on the mother, the child and the chilminder. My DS is an adorable 1 year old who stopped napping at 11 months (if you get 30 min out of him you're lucky), he adores his childminder and she's much better than me at keeping up with his enormous amount of energy. She does a better job than me, full stop! When we are together, we are so glad that it turns into quality time. We're all happier like this.

scottishmummy · 27/04/2012 13:14

Mule thats not feminism! its women know yer place. its dont aim for participation in workplace and motherhood. not when there are babies to be watched

i think you clearly have an agenda, and a vision that mums place is in the home with baby/children. i dont read a lot of scope in your posts. you have spectacularly missed point and failed to address any aspect adults share and are jointly responsible for childcare. you unfortunately reinforce the mums place is childcare and domesticity - what about the dads????

and paid housewifery is risible. really so
if one wants to stay in home with their own kids its a private domestic arrangement. the state and tax payer should in no way reimburse you for being economically inactive.

sh1t · 27/04/2012 13:18

mule Thank you for coming on here and responding in part.

Nicely sidestepping the accusations that you are coming across as either earnest, smug, or patronising. Also making no mention of the parallels that you draw between abused and wounded therapy clients, and children in child care. No apology for referring to child care professionals as "paid strangers".

Feminism re-claiming motherhood as a valid choice. You betcha, good call. Your stance on women who chose to work as paid strangers? Hmmm...cant seem to circle the square.

OP posts:
porcamiseria · 27/04/2012 13:25

brave lady!

"Women talk about being bored with childcare and say that they are not using their brains. But perhaps some of this feeling of boredom comes from the sense that what they are doing is not of any value? "

Nah, I think for alot of women its just boring as fuck. stuck having dull conversations in dull baby groups, walking aimlessly round the park, desperately trying to make friends with people i had fuck all in common with to plug gaps in a looong lonely day. spending time with a deeply loved, but not very chatty 3 mo. going to Tesco for something to do!

scottishmummy · 27/04/2012 13:28

baby groups and precious moments mamas made me miss work soooooooooo much. day to day aspects of being at home dull and unstimulating. i craved brain food. a stimulating discussion about something other than
feeding
pooping
wt gain

i love my children but no way no siree was i giving up career and becoming a mummy martyr

porcamiseria · 27/04/2012 13:31

funnily enough as I write the last post I felt GUILTY!!!!

guilty that I hated my first mat leave
guilty that I only survived 2nd one as had family about and went abroad
guilty that i would rather have root canal than return to playgroup

see, SEE whats this thread is doing,meh

Whatmeworry · 27/04/2012 13:33

Mule, I assume you don't have to actually, you know, work to cover the mortgage and all that dull stuff?

AutumnSummers · 27/04/2012 13:34

I really don't understand why anyone feels the need to defend their life choices to people who are only making comment based on assumotion. i hold myself accountable to my family and make my choices based on my family. Not on the opinion of a stranger.

For clarification I am a SAHM.

SeaHouses · 27/04/2012 13:38

A lot of the people who criticised me were members of my family Autumn- my MIL, my brother's wife, My Aunt and so on.

DuelingFanjo · 27/04/2012 13:41

"dueling - You don't expect the government to subsidise your decision to drop down to 4 days a week? Even if you will be worse off I take it you can afford to drop a day?"

I wouldn't be dropping a day if I couldn't afford it.
I wouldn't decide to become a SAHM just because I knew I could get benefits.

the mule - you are brave to come on here and respond, imo with more tripe.

Do you think you would be up for explaining why you used such emotive language which clearly puts working mothers down and why you made a llink between Adults who were abused as children and children who are in childcare?

AutumnSummers · 27/04/2012 13:41

Seahorses we had 4 kids in 5 years. The amount of criticism levied at me from some family and friends was atriciuos. People were saying outright that I should have aborted DD2. She was unplanned but I couldn't have an abortion. I didn't have it in me. But fucked if I was going to lower myself by defending my choice to have my baby.

OliveandJim · 27/04/2012 13:44

I forgot to add, in my opinion, the perfect compromise is part time work. If I could spend an additional day a week with my baby I'd be a happier mum and a happier employee. That, for me is truely the future for motherhood, mix both worlds in a balanced way! Not going back to stay at home!! I love that my child gets to experience building new relationships with a childminder, other children (he has a crush on a little 2 year old girl and experiences a new set of feelings at only 1) and enjoy his mummy more than just Saturdays and Sundays.

The Mule, I really recommend you read Oliver James. You don't value at all the experience even young babies / children can get from being in a warm and loving child-care environment. I won't have other children so for my 1 year old to spend the week with 4 adorable children between 1 and 4 years of age gives him the same emotional build up he would get from having brothers and sisters. He truely loves them. I could never compensate for that on my own.

AutumnSummers · 27/04/2012 13:44

To clarify again: when I said "opinion of a stranger" i meant the man writing the article. But I also think that the even the opinions of those close to you are unhelpful and unnecessary when unsolicited.

jellybeans · 27/04/2012 14:29

Good post themule I agree with your points.

SM you make assumptions about SAH being dull, talking about poop all day etc. I am a SAHM and never bored or wanting more stimulation. I have friends and go out alot and we have far better conversations than kids and poop! Perhaps you just had dull friends/aquaintances? I don't miss paid work at all. Perhaps somebody very isolated would. I love the freedom of SAH without being scheduled to somebody's timetable and demands. There are plenty of things to do such as OU study if you get bored.Of course it isn't for everyone but you can't just dismiss SAHM's as 'precious moments mamas' because for many it is the right choice for them and their kids! (Just as WOH may be for you/yours!)

cestlavielife · 27/04/2012 14:39

"babies and small children need focused attention from someone who loves them" yes and that can be a "paid stranger" (or "strangers" ) who the child gets to know and who knows the child. it is patronising to CMs and other paid childcare workers to suggest they remain strangers espec to young children.

nusery workers, teachers etc - other non-family adults - can be so important to a child's development.

actually i think having parent(s) around for the after school becomes more important for the older child, say from 6 7 upwards, so cutting hours to be able to be there after school or to pick up from after school club becomes so much more important.

consistent caring care from paid or unpaid people is fine. it is about quality.

when child grows becomes more self aware and perhaps doubting, peer pressures ec - all these need consistent guidance from parent, yes, family support.

hettie · 27/04/2012 14:42

mule.... your piece makes it sound as though 'severl decasde of psychology' has given an absolute definitive answer about the best way to promote secure attachement. And that part of this answer lies in having a mother around full time until 5......At best you are being disingenuous if not outright selective in your review of the literature. By and large I would agree with your assertion that poor attachments lead to problems can lead to problems in later life. But you forgot to add a few important caveats. Most importantly (in a mumsnet context) is that staying at home with your child will not guarantee that they form good attachment relationships. And your forget to mention that they can form these with people other than their mothers?.. even shock horror when those people are paid!
I don?t care what your views are- but to claim some academic rigour to your argument annoys the hell out of me- it?s the kind of piss poor scientific ?journalism? that give bonefide science journalists and psychologists alike a bad name- next time please please preface your use of ?research? with some caveats (here are some handy phrases; ?my reading of the research?.? ?some of the research supports my view that?? )

scottishmummy · 27/04/2012 14:44

jellybeans read my post carefully it's 1st person subjective
I make no assumption I speak from experience of finding mat leave dull, couldn't wait to return.and it was poop,feeding etc until made other pals

not all people find if fulfilling and enriching
as many posts on mn attest

stillorsparkling · 27/04/2012 14:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy · 27/04/2012 14:52

mule what kind of therapist are you
are you bps?hpc?bacp
as frankly your assertions and interpretation are not widely shared
good enough mother and concept of stable consistent childcare would acknowledge that others can adequately deliver childcare

AutumnSummers · 27/04/2012 14:57

2 To suggest that you stayed at home 'for the good of the children' of necessity suggests that WAHM are damaging their children in some way. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise

I made the choice to stay at home becaue I felt it was for the good of my family but I don't see how that implies anything at all about my feelings for those who did the opposite.

I can fully appreciate that what I feel is good for my own family may not be what's good for someone else's. Why do you assume that people are unable to make distinction like this? When I say I'm doing what's good for my family I mean eaxctly that. What is good for MY family.

wordfactory · 27/04/2012 15:15

mule
If parents wish to SAH and think it is for the best, then that is absolutely their perogative.

But to assert that doing otherwise is damaging and women shouldn't do it is not a feminist thing to do. Please don't try to dress it up as such.

And expecting parents to be paid not to work is laughable.