This has made me so angry..working mums, we are the devils work

[sh1t]

I read this, and wish I hadn't

paid strangers to look after our kids

I sort of get the sentiment behind it, but the tone of smuggery just irks me, and the post is so skewed to mums, what about dads. The author claims she is a feminist, but I can't see it.

duelling - I do actually agree with you on this point, very little is said about the men in these cases. I work now my kids are at school and if they are ill, like many women, it is me that has to take time off to look after them. My husband would never consider it. I, for one would have been more than happy if my husband had looked after the children at home instead of me but he wouldn't have agreed to it.

I would also like to point out that I do not consider that I was subsidised or paid to stay at home with my children. The tax credits we get top up my husbands wage, which should have been much higher anyway when compared to other workers in similar jobs. We don't have get any other benefits and we still had to live on a low amount of money.

This didn't affect my decision to stay at home with the kids.
At one point I worked full time hours in the evenings and stayed at home with the children all day when they were toddlers. I personally would have done virtually anything to stay at home with them. I am not saying that others should do the same but that I don't feel like I was sponging off tax payers just because we get tax credits. Low paid workers should be paid alot more anyway and I was doing something valid.

The government would have paid for alot of the childcare anyway if I had have gone back to work. This would probably have been more than the amount we get in tax credits. I work now and am more than happy for my taxes to go towards helping others to stay at home with their children before they go to school too.

Lastly, I am most certainly working class and we have a mortgage etc like ma ny other people. Many working class people do stay at home with their children.

I absolutely agree scientific research is so so important for understanding these things, that's why I don't think the Aric Sigman opinion piece should be considered to be 'new research'. However perhaps it's not his opinion piece that you were referring to in your earlier post?

yes df all comments I got about return ft after baby were from women
no mention of partner remaining ft
plenty precious moments and eye rolling
it speaks volumes that the implicit message given is that women's should be at home

all very women know your place.

Shag I get that lots of adults justify their choices by saying 'they are good for the family'. I'm not sure if that's what you think I'm doing, but I don't think I am.

I also think - if you don't mind my saying so - that the idea that 3 years is a short time in an adult's life ain't necessarily true. Not in career terms. Those 3 years out can destroy a woman's career (and it will be a woman's).

Personally, I think there are positives and negatives to putting small children in f/t childcare. I accept there are negatives, definitely. But if you are asking about the perspective of the children? - I would say: greater opportunities to socialise; earlier acclimatisation to routine and different people, which I think helps at school; increased and varied activities.

Also, as you know, everyone can produce anecdotes which probably don't mean much, but - the happiest children I know are in f/t childcare. Might be a total coincidence. I don't know. But these things, together with my family's economic circumstances, make me feel that this is the best overall choice for us as a unit, as the alternatives would involve giving up our house and/ or my leaving a career I have spent nearly a decade training for.

A sustained period off work would be detrimental to career for me. I worked hard and still do to achieve what I have.it means a lot to me. too much to put it on hold for years 5yrs til primary 1 starts. id be unlikely to get back in at same level, things change.

I have never seen an under 18 left in charge of babies ever surely there is good and bad childcare as there is good and bad parents

cue the anecdotes of knew a woman who knew a girl who said they beat dem kids you know.or a recount of mrs Hannigans daycare where they whey faced weans cry for absent mummies

"Women talk about being bored with childcare and say that they are not using their brains. But perhaps some of this feeling of boredom comes from the sense that what they are doing is not of any value?"

I think that some of the women who are "bored by childcare" are ignorant of the drivers of child development. The bringing up of children doesn't have the instant gratification of much work - child rearing requires great patience before getting a return on your investment. If you don't even understand in what way the actions and activities that you undertake with your DC will be laying foundations for future desirable outcomes, you may indeed be "bored" because you are not engaged with the process.

"Personally, I think there are positives and negatives to putting small children in f/t childcare. I accept there are negatives, definitely"

I appreciate (as someone who has fucked up her own career by going part-time and has some regrets about that) that stopping work or going part-time for a few years can have serious consequences for a professional person's career.

What would you say are the positives for a very tiny baby of being in group childcare? If you for a moment discard the economic issue (assuming that many people can go part time or give up work for a while without endangering their ability to keep body and soul together on one income) - what is in it for the baby? I'd appreciate it if we could leave the issue of PND aside. I do agree that serious and untreated PND in a mother caused or exacerbated by being at home with her child is obviously a special case.

"surely there is good and bad childcare as there is good and bad parents"

I absolutely agree. But then we all acknowledge how much damage a bad parent can do. Very few people are willing to admit that leaving small babies in childcare which simply is not organised in such a way as to allow that baby's emotional needs to be easily met (which I think is the case with nurseries with a ratio of 3 under one's to one nursery nurse), is unacceptable.

Bonsoir - what is also 'boring' about being a SAHM is the fact that women in this country are so socially isolated.

Other countries where people live in small, cohesive communities, with family close by, are probably easier places to experience being a mother.

Being alone with small children all day is very, very tough for many women. But it's not the children that are the problem. It's the fact that families in the UK so often live in isolation from their communities and from their wider families.

Shagund depends on the nursery we have 1:2 under 1s at ours, but mostly it is organised that each childcare worker has a baby in a sling and then cares for 1 or maybe 2 aged 1 - 2 year olds. We would never do controlled crying and belief in attachment childcare as you would parenting as babies like the closeness. My own dd had this

Why in this debate is childcare always equated with nurseries.There are other options.

Childminders these days have to jump through massive hoops,they often have their own children and take kids to their local pre-school.Kids under the care of childminders can curl up on a sofa when they feel like it and can really build a fantastic relationship with their carer.Ditto nannies.

My sister after reading masses of research against nurseries particularly boys leaves her twin boys with a nanny.Said nanny is amazing,lovely,takes the boys to their local pre-school,meets up with their friends et.When they're feeling crap said kids can just mooch about their own home.

She has nanny shared said nanny with another family.It's always been cheaper than a nursery would have been.My sister's husband has dropped a day from work as has she so they only employ their nanny 3 days a week.

Childcare does not equal nursery.

Personally I think in this debate the needs of children need to be a priority as far as it can be.Not all mothers suit staying at home.Not all mothers can stay at home. When mum going to work is the preferred option I think creativity and the child's needs should come first whether this be looking at all options re childcare,perhaps dropping hours slightly etc.

The gov should be playing a big part in this ie they should be helping mothers to stay at home if they wish,doing more research into childcare(it's implications and the best type),improving quality and supporting families.They do none of the above.

At the end of the day these tiny babies/children in many cases are being left 5 days a week,maybe 9 or 10 hours a day(it's foolish to not except their care will have a massive impact on their development and we will have to deal with it 20 years down the line).*These children's needs should be the most important consideration in this debate and I sometimes feel they come bottom.The gov doesn't give a stuff,they'll just churn out the cheapest option re childcare and mothers quite rightly want their own needs and careers catered for.

not read the whole thread but she seems to be a fairly manipulative 'therapist' the kind that would advocate years of navel gazing (while you pay her to listen of course) and delving deep to find something to snot all over a Kleenex about - trust me, as the child of a working mother and lone parent I do NOT need to be prompted to cry fake tears about any of my childhood by some git with a postgrad and obvious agenda

oh I get ranty!

I can see why OP is upset, but to be honest the blog is one sided as she is making a point not giving a balanced view, she wants to challange clegg.

As a mum who has by chance sort of ended up at home, I can say I feel like I have to defend myself when people ask " do you work" and feel just as under attack for doing so as the OP>

I feel like Labour created an atmosphere where you felt you were not doing anything useful if you stayed at home!

I think its time women gave other women a big break. We are all different, all our circs are different, our children our needs, our DH's.

I thought choice meant not feeling bad either way? Isnt that the nature of true feminism?

Most childcarers I know put their life and soul in to it, and its very hard work. If you think sahms are treated bad by society try being a nursery nurse you will be seen as thick, uneducated, probably couldnt cope with anything 'harder' other than maybe hairdressing (even though many now have degrees), dont care about the children, are a stranger, probaby ignore te childrn to talk about handbags/clubbing I could go on.....

staff at my dc nursery have hnd and degrees. v capeable and bright staff
have lot of respect for good job they do

scottishmummy they have to have a qualiication at the very least an nvq 2 in ccld...it is against ofsted regs if they dont...yes students work there on placement etc but are supervised and never undress/ change nappy etc

The nursery my DS (5 months) is in offers far superior stimulation than he would get being at home with me 5 days a week. That situation simply would not work for either of us. The staff and facilities are brilliant.

I can never understand why these threads get so fighty when any idiot can see that shit childcare is shit childcare regardless of whether it is delivered by a SAHP a CM, a dedicated nanny or a Nursery worker.

It's irrelevant who delivers the childcare and it's ^all" about the quality.

All staff at my DD nursery are beyond fab, but there is another thread today with a nursery nurse highlighting the bad ones...as long as anyone with baby/young children/disabled/elderly in anyones care realises that bad things can happen it makes it easier to prevent.

I see alot of nannies in toddler group circuit and most are good but there are one or two who sit and ignore child. I saw one girl I adored, I thought nanny was her mother, as she never spoke ( girl didnt), she was always nervous toddleing off to do things looking back to nanny who was always on phone.

A few weeks later a new nanny was employed and quite soon , little girl was diffrent child, took a while but eventualy she was chatting and joining in...new nanny became a friend and said mum is amazed by childs change she just thought it was child and didnt get rid of other - only as they didnt really get on in house togehter.

Shag yeah I appreciate that the benefits I listed probably apply mostly to older babies, from about 15 mos.

For a tiny baby? It's harder to justify. But I would say, for me and the women I know, the benefit is that we get to keep living in our house and can afford to travel to see relatives etc. That is where I would be thinking of the family unit. For me, at that point, it'd probably be quite nice to be home with my baby - ditto for the baby - but if we did that, then pretty soon I'd reach a point where in reality I'd have to go back f/t or quit work. It's that kind of job. Which wouldn't be good for the baby in the long run as we would lose most of our income (etc - you know how that goes!).

To me it is about one of those potentially unpopular parenting choices which are going to pay off down the line because we get to stay in a house with a garden and stuff like that.

Blimey Cat times have changed you now need to be an expert in childcare to be a good SAHM!!!!!Can't you just be a mum?In my experience kids don't give a shit,they just want their mum.Since when did mums become not good enough at carinf for their own kids?

I was staffing officer for our local pre-school and have to say it was a major struggle getting staff I'd have been happy with.

Also NVQ2 not being rude isn't exactly a stretch to achieve.

heffley external childcare nurseries/cm/nanny is regulated
what mums at home do is unregulated if only looking after own child.so no there is no compulsion to attain a qualification to watch your own dc

I am sure he's happier at nursery than he would be at home with me full timeMrsH.

I wouldn't be happy at home 7 days a week so if I am not happy I won't make him happy.

He has a great time at nursery being cared for by excellent people who are there soley to provide care for the children they are looking after. They are not trying to get the laundry on, sort the banking, cook the dinner or anything else - they are able to focus on him in a way I wouldn't be able to for 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

mrsheffley ""Also NVQ2 not being rude isn't exactly a stretch to achieve.""

no it isnt at all a stretch, but i just tried to explain to scotsmummy that you just cant walk into a nursery and work there without no formal qualifications

as molly3 says nursery nurses are assumed to be thick, sit on their arses all day gossiping about handbags and booze...this is not the case as you well know..far from it lol

doormat I don't need nursery qualifications explained to me
I'm supportive of nursery staff have used nursery nice 6 mth old
I have been v fortunate in having great nursery staff