to think the state should pay part of our private school fees?

[wolvesarejustoldendaydogs]

Don't jump down my throat! It's just a thought.

State schools are overcrowded and there aren't enough good ones. Private schools are expensive.

What if every child had a right to have their state school 'payment' (whatever it costs per child per year') paid to a private school? Obviously parents would have to top-up (probably a considerable amount).

That would create a bit of a market, with more choice, making private schools more affordable and state ones less overcrowded.

Or is it a stupid idea for a reason I will think of soon after pressing 'POST'?

"the single biggest cause of deprivation or individual outcome is dysfunctional families."
I work with dysfunctional families nearly all live below the poverty line and its true the outcomes for their children are absolutely rubbish. No one wants families and especially children to live like this. How we address this is a huge dilemma in our society? It is all about money and this government are clobbering this group even more but its aspirations, education or lack of it health issues both physical and mental and housing also play apart. I really don't know how we permanently resolve this, These problems of course are not confined to the UK other countries even those we would not necessarily think of have similar e.g. scandinavia. If and when we come out of recession this group will remain and the gap between them and the rest of us will bet bigger and bigger if we don't come up with an effective way of addressing this.

Actually, seeker I DId say it was about money, although I meant it was the money aspect of charity status, and the tax rebate claim of the OP, which no-one is talking about now. Not that I think they should be.

I couldn't agree more with what you say about that default position of the privileged.

seeeker I cant find the posting about money and the injustice/dislike of the have and have not but someone definitely brought it up and tied it into eductaion.
Portofino how are you going to take the alternative away?

I agree that society's ills are fundamental, but you have to start somewhere, and the structural aspects of education are as good a place as any.

It isn't all about money at all. Dysfunctional familes cut across all social groups. It is true that dysfunctional families are often extremely poor, but that is as a result of their dysfunctionality.

I disagree echt, you could spend a fortune on education & still not improve the outcomes of those who come from dysfunctional backgrounds.

Happy - my view is that there should be no private schools. The whole education system in the UK needs overhauling.

It IS about money - the amount of money the government is willing to spend on eradicating poverty and improving education.

"seeker" I agree its not a God given right IME luck plays a big part by this I mean being in the right place at the right time and making the "right" decisions these are significant factors.

There are no easy answers to deprivation. I work in financial services (boo hiss! yes I know) and I was talking to a group of people who work in the same area. One of our concerns was that we don't make enough stuff in this country and the manufacturing industry we do have is often owned by foreign companies. Germany, France even Italy have a large home grown car making industry for example, we don't. Not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer nor would we want that, the UK economy is biased towards the service sector and many of the areas of deprivation are where heavy industry has gone and not been replaced.

No, it is not about eradicating poverty and that is the problem. It has to be about tackling dysfunctional familes & the research suggests this could potentially take 3 generations. Politicians don't want to touch this with a barge pole because there are no quick fixes.

Postbellum - but you COULD do something. You could get the children into school earlier - the maternelle/kindergarten system. You could offer more wrap round care, holliday clubs, homework clubs. Try to outweigh the poor influence at home with strong role models, access to books, good pastoral care....

Ooh, and who's to blame for that? Thatcher. Fucked our manufacturing base.

A boil on the arse of humanity.

Happygarderner- I was sort of hoping you would have the grace to accept that you have offended me and others. Obviously not. Frankly I don't think I can debate with you any more, now that I know what you think of my motivations. It would be a sham.

Yes Portofino, that would help and that is part of the solution - but you still need to address the issues within the families. There are kids out there who sleep with all their belongings in a carrier bag, that is looped through their arm at night, so their mum / dad / adult in the house doesn't nick it to sell it for drugs / booze etc. There are kids who never get to the wrap around care or holiday clubs, because there is no one to take them & as toddlers they can't get there. Most of the damage is done by the time a child reaches 3 years of age. If you don't tackle the family, you will never reach those children.

"PostBellumBugsy" in my now extensive experience of working with dysfunctional families (I'm talking about crime/drug/alcohol/severe mental health/and child abuse) although they do come form all backgrounds the vast majority come form extremely poor backgrounds and were living like this before they became dysfunctional.
Well echt here's a turn up for the book we actually agree on something:
"It IS about money - the amount of money the government is willing to spend on eradicating poverty and improving education." couldn't put it better myself!

I'm not sure I agree that the structural ills of education are the right place to start with social reform. I would be interested to know how often experimental measures have yielded good results in eduction. Anecdotally, I would say not very often.

Education should not lead social reform, but follow from it. If you lead with education, I rather suspect that nothing will follow with the result that you will deliver worse outcomes for some and better outcomes for none.

Happy, you are not the only person posting on here with extensive experience!!!!! Anyhow, other than me, the Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, who is hardly inexperienced has a different view.
If it were about education, then the fact that every child already has to go to school would have solved the problem. There is a direct correlation between how well you do and your family background - not in terms of wealth, but in terms of functionality.

seeeker I have no intention of offending you or anyone else. If I have offended you I sincerely apologise. I hope I haven't attacked you personally and as someone who was attacked personally on MN the other day by a complete stranger I know how offensive and upsetting this can be. I just like a good debate and enjoy being controversial.

Please accept a bunch of from me it is genuinely offered.

"PostBellumBugsy" I think if you look at statistics there is a definite correlation between crime/poor educational achievement/severe mental health problems/substance abuse and poverty. It is frequently a chicken and egg situation but poverty is very clearly related to all these issues.

I think that part of the issue is that most if not all the politicians in the cabinet/shadow cabinet are from a fairly homogeneous background i.e. well educated, intellectual, white collar etc so that is what they think everyone should aspire too.

I don't think they see manual work / manufacturing / making stuff as being on the same level and I don't really think they would want their children to do it.

echt its easy to blame Thatcher but what did Blair and Brown do about it - they had long enough. Do you think Ed Milliband will make metal bashing his priority?

I suspect (pure supposition on my part) that Germany values its manufacturing sector and is proud of it, I am not sure the same is true in Britain.

If there is no work in an area, then I think this is one of the factors that can cause a family to become dysfunctional.

seeker let me try again; Please accept a bunch of from me it is genuinely offered.

I couldn't agree more. Their is a higher level of poor dysfunctional families. However, you can still do well & function well in society if you came from a functional background - even that was a poor one. The liklihood of you functioning well as a member of society if you came from a dysfunctional background is far less likely. By helping solve the family functionality, you will also help to address some (clearly not all) of the causes of poverty.

Thank you, happy gardener- I accept the flowers and the apology. But now I know that you think I don't mean what I say about my motivation, I still don't think it's any point us discussing this any more.

"I suspect (pure supposition on my part) that Germany values its manufacturing sector and is proud of it, I am not sure the same is true in Britain"
No we dont value are manufacturing industries. My DH works in a very high end manufacturing company he was recently approached with a view to offering two boys apprenterships one had no GCSE's and had very poor literacy and numeracy skills he was told that this would make him an ideal candidate for a apprentership. When my DH pointed out that the job requires a high level of mathematical skills in particular trigonometry the person said "oh I just thought you would want someone who can make things not someone whose clever!"