to think the state should pay part of our private school fees?

[wolvesarejustoldendaydogs]

Don't jump down my throat! It's just a thought.

State schools are overcrowded and there aren't enough good ones. Private schools are expensive.

What if every child had a right to have their state school 'payment' (whatever it costs per child per year') paid to a private school? Obviously parents would have to top-up (probably a considerable amount).

That would create a bit of a market, with more choice, making private schools more affordable and state ones less overcrowded.

Or is it a stupid idea for a reason I will think of soon after pressing 'POST'?

seeker I accept that for you and many who post on here "it's about principle, and philosophy and politics. And social conscience." But I sadly think that you and I have to accept that some people are jealous of those who have or who they perceive as having money and aspire to have it themselves.

I was recently shocked by a couple of work colleagues who quite openly admitted that they were only interested in their partners because they believe they are wealthy. We live in a materialistic society and people want money to enable them to buy things that their parents would never dreamed of wanting.

wordfactory - I suspect you will be proved right

But by removing choice, the government will be forced to adopt new measures to improve state education. So all schools will benefit. And extra investment will be needed in certain areas, yes. Why should your access to a decent education depend on a) your post code b) your parents's bank balance.

I am astounded by the amount of "I'm alright Jack" posters here.

PostBellumBugsy I know exactly what the fees are for many schools I didn't say they were all £66 000+ pa but there are a significant number out there who are charging that for two children and my point was that those paying this are rich! Those paying this sort of money might be "prioritising" (although many dont need too) but not in the way someone on benefit is prioritising!

Interestingly, Ed Balls said some of the things theoriginal has said about private schools. That it would be so much better if we were all educated together. That we should all work to make state education better...until it was pointed out to him that over half of all home educated kids have been in the state system and have been let down by it!!!!

And for the record, I could afford to educate privately in the UK.....

Chaz

I see what you are saying but in all the places I have lived in my life ( I was going to list them all but that would out me so suffice to say 1 village, 2 small towns, 1 large town, 1 large city, 1 huge city) the areas of deprivation and more well-off areas were and are not that widely spread out that it wouldn't be inconceivable for children from either 'type' of area to go to school in one if the 'other' areas. Willing to accept that this may not he the case elsewhere.

And if course the problem of social separation leading to areas of deprivation is a separate issue which was exacerbated in many cases ( certainly in the larger towns and cities) by planning decisions in the sixties and early seventies. I'm recent years planning strategy has tried to address this when building new developments.

And secondly if the people at the top were forced to use their state schools the idea is that there would be a push to improve the state system in general which would indirectly benefit all state schools.

Maybe you just come across people who ar not very nice happy. While I'm sure there are people who are jealous, many people are too busy appreciating what they have and counting their own blessings to bother being jealous.

I genuinely don't feel I have anything to be jealous of because some people can use private schools and I can't. It's up to me to ensure my children achieve, it has nothing to do with what anyone else may or may not have.

portofino I'm just not convinced the push for better state education would come. Cameron says he will use state ed. Do we really think he'll be driving deep changes any time soon?

The class divisions in this country are wider than at school level. You need money to access so much in society. The more you have, the more you can access.

If I sent my DC to state school, I'd still be me, my DC would still be themselves. We'd just have even more cahs to spend.

"seeker I accept that for you and many who post on here "it's about principle, and philosophy and politics. And social conscience." But I sadly think that you and I have to accept that some people are jealous of those who have or who they perceive as having money and aspire to have it themselves."

Well, you obviously don't accept that really sincerely or you wouldn't have made the comments you did on a thread where there has been no indication that anyone is operating from a position of envy. You have shown what you really think about me and others who share my views. And I really thought you were one of the people who "got it". This is only the second time I have been genuinely upset by anything on mumsnet.

"But by removing choice, the government will be forced to adopt new measures to improve state education."
Will it? If you want to improve education and for that matter the NHS then we need to pay significantly more taxes like they do in Scandinavia, address the fact that 14% of our population live below the poverty line again by raising taxes or stop going to war in places where we haven't got a cats hope in hell of making any difference. Or perhaps not fund big events like the Olympic games although their is some evidence that this can have a positive impact on a countries economy lets keep our fingers crossed on that one, we need to look at how we can boost our economy perhaps by expanding our manufacturing base like the Germans and to do this we we need to expand and improve the apprentership system so that instead of it being seen as a third class option its something to be proud of. Removing private ed. will not resolve the problems in state ed.

Chaz/wordfactory I have now responded as you can see. I was getting there, sorry it took me a while.

Portofino, I don't think you are fighting the right battle there.

Educational outcomes don't depend on parents bank balance or their postcode. It depends on their attitude and the value they put on education. That is proved by the many high achieving state schools.

You can throw money in deprived areas, but that won't make disinterested parents start listening to their children read, providing them with somewhere to do their homework, go to parents evening, take them to the library or interesting places. Changing those things is what needs to happen to rid us of failing schools.

Well it is the people who home ed who would say they did it because they were let down by the state - I don't know that I'd accept that unquestioningly, though.

I also don't particularly see that that causes a problem for Ed Balls's points which, as you say, I agree with.

seeker I didn't bring up the fact that some find it disagreeable that some have more money than other someone else did I just picked up on it. I think we have to be realistic here just because you are are not envious of those with more money than you and for that matter neither because I know that this money does not necessarily make you happy others are. This envy makes people attack thing that they cant have.

Meant to say: for that matter neither am I because I know that this money does not necessarily make you happy

HairyToe thanks for your reply

Outraged so how do we do that?

echt - use of private tutors would not have solved the problem of persistent bullying.

I want to live in a society where there is good state provision, but when that fails one of my children, I want the right to be able to do something about it. I do not want to sit passively by whilst the state does nothing. If my options are increased because of the amount of money I earn, that is good for me. It is unfortunate for those who do not have the same options but that is no reason for me to allow my child to suffer.

All inequality will never be eliminated unless the model of society that we have is fundamentally changed and we value all achievements equally. As I cannot ever foresee that happening, the education system should reflect the society we have rather than one which does not exist.

Original, it is not just the home ed people who feel very let down by the state - I do too. However, I am too thick to home ed , not to mention the fact I have to work full-time to keep the roof over our heads - so home ed was never an option for me / DS.

With regard to deprivation, Sir Harry Burns the Chief Medical Officer for Scotland has some very interesting things to say about this. From the research he has pulled together, it looks like the single biggest cause of deprivation or individual outcome is dysfunctional families. This is one of the hardest things to tackle & of course, very politically sensitive.

"forced to use their state schools" you still haven't told me how your going to do this!

Outraged - true that you can't make disinterested parents interested, but you could put in place measures to minimise the effect.

What is the alternative? We continue to fail these children by doing nothing? Whilst the gap between rich and poor grows ever wider?

Happy - by not offering an alternative.

Nobody has said anything about the money involved. "It's the politics of envy" is something that privileged people say when anyone suggests that it is privilege, not a God given right.

Portofino yes I would like some people to come up with an alternative idea. In the case of a failing school over-run with challenging disadvantaged kids with disinterested parents, what do we do? Ignore it? Or close the school? where do those kids go then?