to think the state should pay part of our private school fees?

[wolvesarejustoldendaydogs]

Don't jump down my throat! It's just a thought.

State schools are overcrowded and there aren't enough good ones. Private schools are expensive.

What if every child had a right to have their state school 'payment' (whatever it costs per child per year') paid to a private school? Obviously parents would have to top-up (probably a considerable amount).

That would create a bit of a market, with more choice, making private schools more affordable and state ones less overcrowded.

Or is it a stupid idea for a reason I will think of soon after pressing 'POST'?

Oh, happygardener,- please don't play the "people who are opposed to private education are all just jealous" card. Please don't - I though better of you! If you do there will be no point in carrying on the discussion.

Yikes, happy I did wonder how long it would take you to show your true colour with your outlandish fox-hunting analogies.

Of COURSE it's about money. Look at the title of this thread, why don't you? Have you just sussed this? Pay attention.

No-one should have their private choices propped up by the tax payer/artful charity status.

Sorry - para 2 above should read 'disagree that the theory that anyone's problem with segregated education....'

seeker you are right that most privately educated DC don't attend that handful of schools (my DS does but my DD for instance does not). In fact we're very often told here on MN that we are utterly wasting our money - no advantage whatsoever.

So why use such a big hammaer to crack such a small nut!

If people look down on other people from either 'side' of this, then that is about their own negative attitudes, not the establishment in which they are educated.

I disagree that private school means there has to be 'us and them'. My dc dont go to private school, I don't feel looked down on by anyone. I create my own value to society. We need cleaners and dustbin men as much as we need lawyers and doctors. As long as a person is contributing to society in some way, they have value that deserves to be respected.

happy - when my DC were at school I DID go in and run clubs, help with lessons etc. using my particular expertise, which I gained from state education! And this action on my part, which I did for the good of all the DC in the school DIRECTLY raised achievement in national tests. For ALL the DC in that school.

If little old me can do that in one school, with my inferior education, imagine what all those motivated parents who apparently value education more that I do because they paid for it could do in their local schools.

And I really resent this notion that only highly educated people come from private schools.

seeker - You object to the lack of non-public-school representation in Parliament. I agree. Would you agree with me that the logical solution is to return to a nationwide grammar school system, which offered social mobility to the brightest from all backgrounds? Don't let's forget that from 1964 to 1997, every prime minister, from Harold Wilson to Margaret Thatcher to John Major, was educated at a grammar school.

"Yikes, happy I did wonder how long it would take you to show your true colour with your outlandish fox-hunting analogies."
I think I showed my true colours a long time ago.
"Oh, happygardener,- please don't play the "people who are opposed to private education are all just jealous" card. Please don't - I though better of you! If you do there will be no point in carrying on the discussion."
seeker: Of COURSE it's about money. ??!!

"If little old me can do that in one school, with my inferior education, imagine what all those motivated parents who apparently value education more that I do because they paid for it could do in their local schools."
But they're not going I don't go into my DS's comp or our local primary and I can guarantee most people who send their children to indie schools will think like me. To busy lunching with friends!

I'm sorry but what a load of bollocks that those sending their kids to private schools are rolling around in money!!!!! I most definitely am not & I've got friends and acquaintances for whom it is a real struggle to pay the fees. I have hugely wealthy friends quite happy to use their local state schools too - so that is not a persuasive argument at all.

The fox hunting analogy is deeply flawed too, as that tends to be a townie vs country thing & a huge number of fox hunting advocates are relatively poor people living in agricultural communities.

Happy as I have already said I could afford private education and would maybe even consider it I felt it was necessary. But this isn't about me or how jealous I am of you and your cash.

And worrying about the less fortunate in society is not only morally right it us also necessary from a purely selfish point of view. As I said earlier the higher the proportion of disadvantaged under- achievers in society the greater the burden on that society as a whole in terms of crime, welfare etc. And ultimately that means the people with the money ending up paying through the nose through taxation to support those without or suffering from the effects due to being victims of crime. All we're trying to do is find a way of helping to prevent or reduce these issues rather than fire fighting them after the event.

Yes, happy but not with the virulent images of eye-popping envy you delineate; quite a revelation.

I'm sure there are parents of varying intellect, commitment and passion in every social group and at every level of financial well-being.

It's NOT about money- it's about principle, and philosophy and politics. And social conscience. And interesting debate. I always thought you weren't one of the "it's all about the politics of envy" brigade. I'm genuinely disappointed.

Just thinking about the social mobility referred to by flatpack. In order for this to happen, wouldn't the "haves" have to lose in order to make room for the "have nots"? Is there any evidence that this has happened?

Forgive me for repeating myself but

In the areas of highest deprivation there are virtually no privately educated children because people can't afford it and those who can afford it live somewhere else.

Abolishing private schools may mean an influx of motivated parents into the already MC schools but it won't bring motivated parents into the schools in the deprived areas because they don't live in the deprived areas!

I think I have a very strong sense of social conscience, but I still don't support limiting parental choice. I do my bit for society, but I wouldn't do it in schools because just because I'm involved in my own children's education.

I pointed out the alternative, and I can't see why anyone would want that.

echt - I think there is plenty of evidence to support the opposite is happening at the moment!

I am perfectly aware that many people who send their children to private schools are not rich but you cannot get away from the fact that if you can cheerfully stump up £66 000+ a year you are not living below the poverty line even if your struggling to pay it!
I as an active supporter of the hunt am also aware that it not only confined to the landed gentry but but sadly this is not the perception of many.
Believe it or not I too am keen to support the disadvantaged but I just dont/wont accept that removing my DS from his boarding school and sending him to any comp on the UK is going to make a scrap of difference.

I share your disappointment, seeker. Fucked if I know why, though.

The politics of envy agreement is inevitably used by those who oppose real social reform. A bit like Godwin's Hitler. You just sit back, wait for them to run out of arguments; they always do it.

Well it's ok - the tanks probably won't get there for him just yet!

They don't always do it echt, I'm not doing it and disagree with private (or selective) schools being abolished. Nor can I afford for my dc to go private, nor do I feel jealous. I don't need to, I have access to good state schools.

Oh, and I also think fox hunting is vile!

happy, I think you'll find that fees for private schools can be very significantly less than £66k per annum. Believe it or not, you can be on the average wage & still pay for private school, if you chose to prioritise that way!

chaz I suspect no one will actually address that point, or at least not directly. It's the same with the home education argument. No one will actually tackle it.

Because the reality is that abolishing private school will do absolutely nothing for the DC in the valleys. Or the DC in the school where I'm a governor. There just aren't enough privately educated DC living close by!!

Similarly no one will admit that if you remove the choice of private school, you have to remove the choice to home educate, as all the same arguments must surely apply. But no one is ever keen to admit that. Ed Balls came quite close during the Badman debacle but even he felt queasy about removing essential freedoms.