to think the state should pay part of our private school fees?

[wolvesarejustoldendaydogs]

Don't jump down my throat! It's just a thought.

State schools are overcrowded and there aren't enough good ones. Private schools are expensive.

What if every child had a right to have their state school 'payment' (whatever it costs per child per year') paid to a private school? Obviously parents would have to top-up (probably a considerable amount).

That would create a bit of a market, with more choice, making private schools more affordable and state ones less overcrowded.

Or is it a stupid idea for a reason I will think of soon after pressing 'POST'?

I don't know, I guess I can only say what I said above again to that! I just think if you have a geographical area and the kids in it go to the same school up to, say, 11, and then some of them go to grammar/Catholic out-of-catchment/private/boarding school, the way they interact with and think about themselves and one another changes, for the reasons I argued earlier.

And I think the change is a negative one, particularly if the reasons for it are wealth-based, and one perceived as a better opportunity than another.

It's not just that Hannah's parents 'chose' the private school whilst Helen's parents 'chose' the comprehensive, both choices equally valid both fair both fine, just choice - Helen's parents couldn't choose the private, and Hannah's chose it because they chose for her not to go to the comprehensive. So Helen knows she's in the place Hannah's parents have paid hard cash for her not to be. Which can only, in my view, be invidious.

But seeker (waves in a friendly way) my local school isn't good enough for him. I'm not tacitly telling him I'm openly telling him.

TOSN I agree again... you are very articulate

Quirrell, my state school is very short of cash, teachers have been laid off, the remaining teachers are teaching more, class sizes are bigger, can't afford new computers, holes in my classroom which leaks in the rain etc. To the outside observer it probably looks like it has loads of money because we bid for and got money to build new sports facilities. However that money was a completely separate one-off grant which could only be spent on the sports facilities. The rest of the school is falling down because the Tories cancelled the Building Schools for the Future project.

Interesting debate about the importance of going to a school in the community.

I have just moved my children from the local village school to separate indy schools. I don't think in anyway they have the message that the village school was not good enough. They are however aware that there are better options for them and that we are lucky enough to be able to pursue them.

My children remain part of their community. They play on village sports teams and take part in many village activities.

I was state educated and have always passionately believed in state education. However, it would however be naive to deny the fact that the indy schools cannot offer them things that the village school could not - the teaching quality is not better but there are smaller classes and more resources and no children with accute behavioural problems (who have bullied ds to the point where he cannot sleep in a room on his own).

The Government should not pay for my choices to try and provide more for the dcs, but I wish that other people would not judge me badly for it either.

Happy gardener- how do you explain to him that it's good enough for everyone else but not for him?

But The Orig is it not equally invidious that we don't own flash cars or have expensive holidays abroad and some of DS1 friends at his comp do or is that just life? We live in an average cottage some of my DS's friends live in 32 bedroomed piles with 5000 acres or own those huge houses in Belgravia etc. and have army of staff is that invidious? Its life isn't it? As my son said the other day having spent many years mixing with the seriously rich money doesn't but you happiness. Thats what they both learnt money and for that matter big named indie schools don't guarantee happiness or make necessarily make you a decent person. I listened to two work colleagues (neither privately educated) only this week talking about how they want lots of money and to ideally meet a man with lots of money don't worry if he's a complete arse as long as he's got lots of money. Neither my children thanks to their expensive education have any illusions they know what money can do to you.

Like I said:
And yes, you could say this about cars, holidays, houses, horses, out-of-school activities - life's not fair, etc. I would just personally argue that education is more important than any of those things in forming a child's chances and view of the world - which is I suppose the one thing I agree with the parents who openly explain that they've sacrificed those things so the child can go to private school!

TOSN, it is only invidious because we have an education system that has both options. It would be interesting to see how children fare overall in countries where there is virtually no private education.

I genuinely dont believe that he would be happy there this is partly because he's three to four years ahead of his contemporaries in the state sector and an IQ putting him into 1 in 200 of the population and for maths only 1 in 500 have the same ability as he has and I just couldn't see how he would fit in. Remember he's also been streamed for all subject since 7. This is not in fact a reflection of the state system just how his prep was organised although he left his chocolate box primary and went to prep because he was bored and causing trouble (we are all aware that luck enabled us to do this and that plenty aren't so lucky). Also his interests are not catered in any shape or form for in our local comp we have lots of extra curricular stuff but not his interests. . Don't get me wrong I thought seriously about it, and looked at those brochures for the Seychelles, because we are tired physically and mentally of paying but in the end we decided it was the best option for him. He's under no illusions and knows that there are plenty of other like him but who just haven't been given this opportunity but having been given it why would we turn it down.

I work in an mixed independent school more and more we have children coming from all parts of Western Europe and Scandinavia their parents are not paying £30 000+ for their own entertainment. In fact I was talking to a German mum the other day and I was surprised to hear her saying how awful the education in Germany is.

happy - my son seemed to get on ok with that sort of ability in a bog standard comp. As did several of his mates who were fast tracked and did one day a week at local universities to stretch them.

Agree totally with hairytoes, seeker and TOSN. 'cept they are far more articulate than I am!

Of course if you drive past a school in the village to go to one the other side of town or whatever, that you have CHOSEN to pay for , it says that the school you have driven past is not good enough for your kids, but perfectly good enough for mine, who have no choice.

And if you think the kids who have no choice don't think that too you are living in cloud cukkoo land.

*cuckoo

Many parents simply don't have 30K. They make do with the schools they have got and get on with life.

I think children have more understanding of the realities of life than many adults give them credit for. Children understand that the reasons why parents choose school X can be pretty complex.

"It's not just that Hannah's parents 'chose' the private school whilst Helen's parents 'chose' the comprehensive, both choices equally valid both fair both fine, just choice - Helen's parents couldn't choose the private, and Hannah's chose it because they chose for her not to go to the comprehensive. So Helen knows she's in the place Hannah's parents have paid hard cash for her not to be. Which can only, in my view, be invidious."

Its not always as simple as this. It may well be that Hannah has dyslexia and Hannah's parents know she will get zero support at the comp as Hannah is well behaved and achieving within year group expectations. Maybe Helen's parents have paid vast amounts of money to live near the good comprehensive and Hannah's parents live near the sink comp. Or Hannah's parents are relgious.

Children tend to get on with life.

It isn't always a case that the school you drive past isn't good enough - it may be that it isn't right for one of your children and either you are lucky enough to earn enough for an alternative to be an option, or you believe so passionately that your child shouldn't be miserable for the next X years of his / her life that you will beg, borrow & steal to make it possible.

If it is a day school, unless it is one of the really top names, you are unlikely to be paying £30k a year either.

gettinagrip your experience of state ed is very interesting. Its not my experience my local walkable comp, the counties top performing school, could not offer me this and neither could the next two nearest, top preforming, schools. In fact when I was talking to the SENCO (my DS has mild dyslexia) she advised me not to send him to the school as she was worried he would be bored! We've been down that road before. Also as none of his interests both in terms of languages and extra curricular activities were catered for and all would involve a pretty substantial drive that was also a deciding factor. So IMO the school was not right for him or us as a family.
"Of course if you drive past a school in the village to go to one the other side of town or whatever, that you have CHOSEN to pay for , it says that the school you have driven past is not good enough for your kids, but perfectly good enough for mine, who have no choice."
From your posting it would appear that you don't think the school YOU have chosen is not good enough for your kids and therefore does it matter if you have no choice? You seem to like it I'm assuming your DS is happy doing well etc. My local school was not "good enough" for my DS and it may not be good enough for others but I had a choice so I exercised it. That is my prerogative. Not exercising it would not have made a jot of difference to those children who the school is not good enough for.

I don't think this whole thing about community is worthy of the big deal it's being made out to be. I live in a large villiage, my child that is still at primary goes to school in the next villiage (we moved) and I cant see that it makes any difference at all that he isn't going to school in his own villiage. Or does it not count because the other school is also state?

The private school I was at was forever banging on about our school community, older ones were encouraged to look after younger ones etc. It was nice, and still gave the impression that we 'belonged' to a community, just not a traditional little villiage one.

I also don't think so much needs to be made out of 'Hannahs' knowledge that she is going to a different school.

I don't think I was even aware that my parents paid for my school until I was about 10-11, and even then I had no idea how expensive it was until much later. I just thought I went to a private school, and while I knew some schools weren't private, I never really thought much about what that meant because I was never brought up to believe that I was somehow better than anyone else just because my parents had to pay for my school. It was just one of those things that was. I don't think teenagers worry about things like that unless they are taught to by their parents.

So again, whatever end of the education scale your family is on, it is all about parental attitudes. That's what needs to be changed.

Why do so many people see the solution to be bringing those at the top down a peg, instead of bringing those at the bottom up a peg?

Goosey Loosey out of interest what do you think the State could do to help those children in your comp with acute behavioural problems? Or the children left behind who are suffering from their actions?

Not a dig, just a question. I have made it clear I do not 'blame' individual parents from choosing the private option so I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have moved your child. How could these problems in the state school system be addressed?

Who is wanting to bring anyone down a peg? Or are you saying just going to state school is being down a peg? In which case the argument that children aren't aware of the social significance of being at state or private is a bit undermined!

I also think that Hannahs parents are being a bit previous and unfair by assuming that her dyslexia will not get any support at the state school, tbh. But I may be getting a bit too attached to poor old Hannah and Helen here

If you're implying that state school is not 'down a peg' from private school then there is no arguement. I've posted plenty of times throughout this thread saying that I don't think that state school pupils are at so much of a disadvantage that they need private schools to be abolished.

And I am no longer a child/teenager at school, I am aware of the issues surrounding the whole debate a lot more now than I was then. I can honestly say I didn't think about it when I was at school.

And anyone who suggests that children do not know what sort of school they go to, is either being naive or disingenuous. Of course they do. And of course they know that little Jimmy's parents don't think that x school is good enough for him. And so does little Jimmy!

They might know what sort of school they go to, but they don't put all the negatives on that that adults do. They just don't. I didn't and the friends I still have from school didn't. I have no reason to lie about that!

Honestly, I knew I was at a private school. I didn't know that private meant 'paid for' until the time came for me to be interested in secondary school. Even then I didn't have any idea that it was an amount of money that would be the equivalent to an income for some people. There was never any kind of feeling that we were better than others because we were at private school, nor did it ever cross my mind that I was too good for state school or that others didn't deserve as much as me.

If you genuinely believe that children think that way, then I'm not surprised you want rid of private schools.

I have to say that DS's friends in the village cricket team don't seem to give a rats arse that he goes to an independent school and they go to a state school. They are "aware" of it, but as the team attends 5 different schools between them, it is not what they talk about at training twice a week.

Their parents might care (if they do, they don't show it), but the children certainly don't.

I do wonder if it something about being a parent that makes us obsess over the differences, whereas the kids just get on with enjoying themselves.