to think that 34 is too late to retrain to become a doctor

[RosesAreBlue]

I have just had a 'discussion' with a friend of mine in which I told her that 34 is a bit too late to retrain to become a Paediatritian. She got a bit upset and told me I was being unsupportive but I was just trying to be honest and realistic. She has two young children...
I feel guilty now as I don't want to be unsupportive IABU?

gettingalife I thought the 4 years post grad medicine course could be funded other than the first year? Is that not the case if you've previously had funding?

Just had a quick google and it appears that you may still be eligible for a bursary but you'll also have to make up the cost of fees up to 9k as the bursary will only cover the first 3,750. Yikes.

Another YABU here. I know TWO people who have done this (albeit in Australia). One was an accountant slightly older than your friend, and another is currently doing it and almost at the end of training. My second friend is 45. If your friend is prepared to put in the hard work, then that's something to admire, not discourage.

I also know another person who trained as a doctor and practised medicine, then retrained as a lawyer in his late thirties. (!)

If you keep telling yourself it's "too late", the years go by, you reach retirement age and you will never have followed your dream. That would be very sad. It is like having children. It will never be easy or the perfect time. Your friend just has to do it anyway.

Too late at 34! That's a very early age to decide to pack it in and give up your dreams. [old gimmer emoticon]

Lisianthus - in Australia, there are not the same restrictions on med student places as there are here in the uk, and the whole set up out there is more forgiving/welcoming to mature students and career changers.

My DH is a GP involved in Med student training, and DS1 is a first year Med student so I know a fair bit about the process.

Many Uni's do have an age cut off, others allow a tiny number of mature or graduate students in. Depending on your friends degree/A levels, she may have to resit new Alevels. It is very expensive to train dr's, hence the age restrictions.

Places at Med School have been cut drastically in the past 3 years, against a background of increasing numbers applying to get in. Currently, school leavers applying to Med school with all the right grades, work experience etc are able to apply to 4 universities, and more than 60% of applicants will get no offer AT ALL
despite top grades. Many now apply 2 or 3 years in a row to get in. It is even harder to get in as a new graduate, with a first, and having been out of eduaction for a few years will not help matters for your friend. Then there is the UKCAT(and Bmat) entrance exam to contend with.

Not impossible, but it's going to be VERY difficult for your friend to get in to med school, and it may take several years of preparation to get to the point of being able to put in a realistic application.
I think your friend needs to do a LOT of research and think carefully about this.

One of my female relatives has trained to be a pediatrician. I have to admit the family were probably thinking wtf a bit as she was in her mid forties, single mother, three children one of whom has profound physical and learning disabilities. OMG she has done brilliantly. So totally inspiring. Actually I have no idea how she has done it, but there is clearly something in her that is burning so so so so passionately from her own experience having a child who has complex needs that has driven her to achieve this.
Practically she has a very caring mother who has assisted with childcare and I don't think money was a massive issue; even so I think the urge was so great she would've found a way. I think it is possible but i think like anything you need to want it enough and you dooooo need to think about the financial side.

Kristina there are fees in ROI so you are wrong there.

Why is it? I don't really understand why you would think that

peeling I think that is the crux of the matter- how badly does she want it, and are the sacrifices she and her family will have to make worth it ?(and that would apply just as much if the OP's friend were a man). There's a big difference between a lifelong, deeply held ambition and a whimsical notion.

The OP hasn't said, but the friend might well be the main breadwinner or at least a 50% contributor. It therefore might be that it's just not possible at the current time if the family cant lose the income.

OP - a couple of questions:

1. What field does she currently work in ?
2. How long has she had this desire to retrain as a doctor.

I'd like to think that I know my close friends well enough that I would know if a sudden desire to retrain as an architect/gynaecologist/barrister would be a total shock and therefore something they possibly hadn't thought through much. Also whether that person was likely to stick to it and see it through adn be able to put in the work required.

YABU - 34 per se is not too late.
However, i agree with with posters who have highlighted the demanding shift pattern, and requirements to rotate post and therefore location every 6months initially, then 12months as an ST grade, as well as ongoing study. and paediatrics is a very cut-throat speciaility from what I hear. I would imagine that one would need a very available and sympathetic partner in order to juggle all of that.

There are a few doctors/consultants in my family. I'm quite sure that what she is proposing is possible in theory and I would encourage anyone to pursue their dreams, but it sounds (to me) pretty awful and insurmountable in practice. No doubt an unpopular view, but I doubt it would be the best thing for her children, either, assuming the dh isn't able to be around much.

OP don't worry you may have done her a favour in that your opinion might paradoxically galvanise her ambition further :-)

When I was floundering about where to go with my future a few years ago my mate harmlessly suggested an "option" to me which I found so totally demeaning. It was like the proverbial red flag to a bull. I drunkenly cried to myself on the way home but what she said was like a vocational call to action-I knew I could do better than what she was suggesting and I have done better.

The fact that she doesn't seem to have done much homework would suggest to me this idea might not have legs- surely if you're seriously thinking about making such a life changing you do a bit of research?! I'd put money on the fact she'll look at more info and decide its not for her, never mind getting to the UKCAT stage.

I'd be pointing her in the direction of something like radiography, which (iirc) is a much sorter course.

Wow, good for her. Not too old at all. I really admire people who retrain if they're unhappy with their current career - takes a lot of guts.

I'm at medical school at the moment and have a 6 month old, and its honestly fine. There's plenty of mature students on our course, the oldest is 47. Not once have I been in the library until 11pm or sent away on placement. I treat it like a 9-5 job, go in every day, study in lunch hours and work my ass off, but rarely study at home. Others find time for endless clubs and societies- its very doable if you're committed, and you don't have to let studying take over your life. We often have free afternoons or whole days with nothing timetabled.
All of our placements are close to home, and if you have kids then they bend over backwards to give you the nearest placements. I'm in my final year now. My advice would be for her to go for a PBL course with less structured teaching they're so much more flexible and in my first year I only had to actually attend uni one day per week.

Agree with the others. I have an old friend (male) who did a degree in German and Russian then joined the RAF. He is now 54 and retrained to be come a doctor about 18 years ago. This involved getting the requisite A levels as well as actually doing the degree etc.
So quite possible.

For my DH the hardest bit wasn't uni but once he started as a dr.,. The rotations between hospitals can be awful, every 6mths, a year if you are lucky. Up here you can be posted anywhere in the region, sounds ok until you realise the northern region stretches from the Scottish Borders to north Yorkshire, coast to coast, you don't get a choice what hospital. It gets better if you have some sub specialities as they are only catered for in a restricted no of hospitals but until you get to that point you can get bounced around quite a bit and because your always changing it can be difficult.
It put a real strain on our relationship and my DH did the worst of it before we had our DS. My career has had points when it's had to take a back seat due to the demands of DH's, (although we try to balance it out) This isn't saying don't do it - DH loves being a dr, but it can be ridiculously tough and the NHS is a particularly uncertain future for most at the moment including doctors. Paediatrics can also be a funny one - a dear friend trained in paeds and was almost at completion of training when she had kids... She then felt it was difficult to work with really sick children as it made her so anxious about her own children, other people we know in that speciality say that they find having kids helps with the empathy (not sure the kids would agree - never be sick with a dr in thd family) As a career choice it's worth going into with your eyes wide open, if somebody is going to do this it's going to be tough, not undoable but really tough.

I wanted to do this (though not paeds) when I was a bit younger than your friend but was put off by the rotations. Where I live you rotate beween about 6 different hospitals and even if you lived in the middle of them you'd be looking at about a 90min commute on a good day to most of them, 2 hours to others.

Now imagine working a 12 hour night shift, finishing late because something went tits up at the end of the shift. So you dont get off till 10am instead of 9am and then you have to drive 2 hours home. Plus be back at 9pm to do it all again.

With a young child I couldn't say I'd move home every rotation like the younger Drs do.

And if you want to be a hospital Dr it isn't just the first year or two = as well as being the F1 and F2 years its all the time as an SHO and as a registrar. I work in a hospital and everyone changes on the first Weds in August. Apart from the consultants and nurses!

I often think that people tend to be more committed as a mature student. 34 is very young still for even a second career. I can't see the problem with following her hearts desire.

No i admire people who start a new career - i wish i could find something i want to do and do it!

I'm 34. I'm coming to the end of my medical training and quite frankly despite the fact that I love my job and am looking forward to becoming a Consultant there is no way in hell I would contemplate entering training now to be a doctor.

If your friend wants to do this she needs to do a hell of a lot of research. I'll put together a quick timeline as some of the info above is a bit crap. 34 now so presumably hasn't applied for September entry in 2012.

Ergo starts uni (at the earliest) in September 2013 aged 35.
If all goes well she will do a 4 year graduate entry degree - thus graduating in July 2017. Starts work (aged 39) in August 2017.

2 year Foundation Programme - UK wide application programme usually consists of 6x 4 month posts within one 'geographical location' eg. West of Scotland (Ayrshire -> Dumfries -> Lanarkshire -> Inverclyde) or Kent/Surrey/ Sussex.... finishes FY training in August 2019. Most FY doctors work 48hrs/ week. This often includes 2-3 weekends in 6. Often annual leave is fixed and allocated on taking up post. This causes huge problems for those with children who need to take their holidays outwit term time. I went on holiday with one of my friends for his first foreign holiday post marriage as his wife was unable to take leave to join him and I was off that week.

Spring 2019 will have been spent applying competitively for Paediatric training. This is a UK wide process. You can express preference for geographical location (same type of area as above). Popular deaneries fill up fast so it is not unknown for people to live far away from their families. I know couples who are spread over Newcastle/ London, Manchester/ Birmingham, Inverness/ Edinburgh as one partner hasn't got the flexibility to up sticks to follow the other person's speciality training. By this point your friend will be 41.

If she is successful and Paediatrics whilst less competitive than other specialities there are still disappointed / unsuccessful people each year. If you go 'straight through' then Paediatrics in 8 years. Many people deviate off to go and work abroad/ do research/ take time out to get exams etc. Your friend would therefore by 49 before she finished her training. Again during those 8 years she will have spent 48 hours / week at the hospital, including lots and lots of antisocial hours (Paeds tends to be v. on call heavy). She will also have been expected to do presentations/ teaching/ run courses to boost her CV during her own time. There is also the small hurdle of MRCPCH qualification (3 lots of difficult exams) and the new ST7 exam. These both require time to revise and a large financial contribution. Exam fees alone are about 3K. Then there are courses/ books to buy.

Most of this comes out of your income as the study leave budget we are allocated is tiny in comparison to the cost of courses. I know colleagues who don't go on courses they should go on as they can't afford them. My allowance is about £700/ year. I"ve spent in excess of £2000 quid this year and I'm not even doing exam courses.

Paediatricians are increasingly doing resident Consultant shifts which are v. tiring. I know that those in their early 50s in post now are apprehensive about how they will cope as they get older and they have years of experience as Consultants to draw on.

Quite frankly, it isn't something that I would be prepared to do to myself or my family. A lot of mature students go in and do GP (even if they have intended to do something else) as the training is much shorter (Medical school + Foundation Programme + 3 years (soon to be 4 years)). If she took this option then she could be working by 45.

There will be people that say ' you don't need to be a Consultant'. You don't. But increasingly the non Consultant grade jobs include very burdensome on call commitments - the idea of working 2 out of 3 weekends in my 50s with very limited ability to swap depresses me +++. In addition even to be a Specialist Doctor in hospital medicine you would need to do about the same amount of training as a GP.

I'm sorry this is epic but there was a lot of misinformation on the thread from folk who I assume don't really know much about the medical training less so the practicalities of living through it.

I think that the age is less of an issue than the fact that she has young children to consider. The rotations that others mention, and the shift work would have a huge impact on the family. That could work out fine if her DH is around to help, but it sounds as if he works long hours too.

I am 32 and I am doing a degree as a mature student - but I only have one child, who is now a teenager and settled in school, and my course isn't anywhere near as demanding as medicine and it fits into my lifestyle (p/t, local university). I will skip a class and catch up later if I need to if he's off school or I need to take him somewhere. You wouldn't be able to do that with medicine, there just isn't the flexibility. There are a lot of mature students on my course, but many of them are much older than the OP's friend, because it's often easiest to return to study when the DC are older and settled in school, or even when they've left to go to university themselves.

I think it depends on the individual though and it's not clear whether your friend is aware of all the issues, she may have thought it all through and researched thoroughly and still decided to go ahead. Personally I would always encourage a friend in that situation, even if I privately thought she was taking too much on.

It's fine to be honest as a supportive friend, but instead of telling her it was "too late" you could have been more tactful and open-minded. Perhaps you could have said it sounds like a challenge and how was she going to manage XYZ? Then you'd accept her answers - it's not as if she won't have given this a lot of thought - and support her all the way. Apologise for the strong wording next time you see her and say it's because you were concerned as you'd personally find it difficult, but she has your full support.

If her dh works 60 hrs a week and she will be working 48 hrs a week for years then she needs to be happy that for the next 10 years her dc's will have to have full time care.

Gasman, do you really only work 48 hour weeks? I know this is supposed to be the rule but DH (consultant) regularly does 10 hour days, and then 12 hours days on his busy week. He does get 3 mornings off a month for SPA time but this seems to get taken up with meetings. Just wondering how it works for others?