to think that 34 is too late to retrain to become a doctor

[RosesAreBlue]

I have just had a 'discussion' with a friend of mine in which I told her that 34 is a bit too late to retrain to become a Paediatritian. She got a bit upset and told me I was being unsupportive but I was just trying to be honest and realistic. She has two young children...
I feel guilty now as I don't want to be unsupportive IABU?

But English students are seen as EU students in Scotland and will have to pay the fees accordingly.

It's true that no-one can pronounce on the OP's need to pay fees without knowing her location, but likewise saying 'there are no fees here' without saying where 'here' is, is not very clear either.

I think the real issue here is the detail about how informed, prepared and motivated the OP's friend is, and how much support she has around her. It is still possible to take on careers with a long and demanding training period after your 20s but it becomes harder, and even more so with family responsibilities (which should apply to both men and women, but sadly still doesn't). The husband working 60 hour weeks is going to need to cut that back, for instance.

OP, what can you tell us about all this? Why does your friend want to be a paediatrician? Is her husband supportive?

Let's be honest - 34, two small kids, husband who works 60 hours a week and no family within 100 miles and an un-related degree it's unlikely isn't it?

It's not too old and she should do it, and with being a mature student with children, universities assume you are young with no ties, a bit like companies who assume all workers have wives looking after the children so you can be sent anywehere and work silly hours.

It would be a good thing if the medical profession acknowledged life/work balance and orientated itself to not working stupid hours and assuming everyone can just do everything.

I'm disabled and am retraining right now and the courses are easily adaptable for disabled people or those with caring responsibilities and hte more people who ask for those requirements the better the working conditions for everyone will be. With 50% of medical graduates being women we need the profession to acknowledge different working patterns.

So I'd say go for it, and see if she can blaze a trail for mature people with caring responsibilities having an equal shot.

I agree it's possible if that's what she really wants and is going into it fully aware of quite how long it takes and how much work it entails. I know quite a few people who studied medicine as mature students.

But has she also considered some of the other health related jobs which might be a bit less of a slog - clinical psychology, speech and language therapy, psychotherapy, occupational therapy. All of those are very popular with mature students too.

Actually, voidka, EU students don't have to pay in Scotland - just the English. A particular nuance of the higher education act.

And in any case, fees and location will be irrelevant as this is a second undergraduate course - she'd have to pay in any of the UK systems (Scotland, England, Wales, NI)

I dont think that clinical psychology is any better than medicine really. Hugely competive, spend years as an assistant psychologist, with no guarantee of a place on the clinical course.

Finocchio's idea is sound - exploring other medical roles which might be easier to get into without many years of training. I thought Universities would not take medical students over a certain age precisely because it takes so long (and costs so much) to train them up, there's no point in doing it if someone won't work for many years

Good on your friend, sounds like a great idea. It might be tough work but not too late, surely?

I think you are not unreasonable to be worried. And if your friend has not looked into it at all, then she's not yet shown any of the drive and initiative she'll need to do this.

I know someone doing a four year accelerated course in London. She is about to complete it, aged 35. It has been tough but she loves it. She has no children though.

I would definitely be concerned about the effect on the children. I would also be concerned if the parent doing this was the father. I think children do best with plenty of involvement from both parents. Doesn't mean I'd write it off without considering it, but it does mean that your friend and her DH need to think it all through very carefully and work out if/how they can do this while maintaining a happy family life.

Haven't read the full thread, but with the ELQ regulations won't she have to pay full fees up front for a very long course? Not something I'd choose unless DH was a squillionaire

Oh gosh I am going to be 35, I am past it now then and should resign myself I inevitable ageing and death . I should no pt bother retraining to become an occupational therapist then

piglet slightly different cost and commitment structure, wouldnt you say? No-one's saying that retraining is bad, but you dont get much more expensive and protracted that med school (esp if the OP's friend has to redo her A-levels) and it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

There have been threads on her before about people retraining to be doctors, lawyers, teachers etc, and you often get many people from those professions telling them to weigh it up very carefully because actually, it's very easy to get swept into a grand ambition without really thinking through the realities of it. It sounds as though the OP is at very early stages anyway.

YANBU. You were just trying to point out the reality to your friend, who doesn't seem to have done much research.

If she has support, knows exactly what she's letting herself and her family in for and can afford to spend years training, then it's her choice, but I think you were right to voice your reservations.

I think age does come into it with medicine especially when aiming for a competitive speciality like paediatrics. DH started training to be a doctor at 18 - he finally made it to consultant level at 39. Some of his peers are still trying to get to consultant level as there are too many candidates for each job.

His medical degree consisted of being sent to remote locations for weeks at a time, living in a room reminiscent of student halls. Since then he's had to apply for various training posts, relevant to his field, which has involved living away from home during the week - so hidden costs due to extra rent or moving the whole family. We've lived overseas to get additional training to make him more competitive when applying for jobs. If we hadn't done this then he just wouldn't have been considered for a consultant post. Again this led to extra cost to us a family.

I found it hard being married to him whilst he was doing his training. Basically we spent a number of years where I was effectively a single mum. Even when he had rotations that were close enough to commute (i.e. 1.5 hours away from home), he had to spend his free time studying for specialist exams. Then there's the phone calls in the middle of the night!!

I think if the OP's friend is serious about doing this she should get in touch with her local paediatrics unit and shadow both the juniors and consultants to get a feel for the job.

YABVU

That comes from a 40 year old in the second year of training to be a solicitor.

Nobody says you cant try to retrain at any age to become a doctor, lawyer, vet etc but you have to also consider the reality of these professions and if you will reach your eventual goal despite paying out 10's of thousands.

Long expensive degree courses, trying to get relevant experience, fighting for training contract places and SpR posts along with all those other people who studied at eighteen when lots of firms/employers might still have the perception that long hours and continued study which are a pre-requisite for these professions aren't really for those pushing 40 or past 40. It's not right but that attitude will exist

Yes my friend is in the uk so would have to pay fees.. She's aware of this. Her dh is supportive and would love for her to follow her dream, but I've mentioned before -this is early days and I'm not sure he's aware or fully absorbed the impact on the whole family.

For those of you who think i have a sexist or 1950s attitude, you couldn't be further from the truth, it would not be automatically "ok for a man".. The same concerns apply: financing it, childcare and relocation issues etc... If one parent suddenly becomes a lot less available, is studying till 11pm every night, leaving for 8 weeks on placements etc then there is an impact on the children. Mother or father. Anyone who thinks there isn't is living in lala land. There is nothing dated or sexist or ageist in considering this.

They are comfortable but no squillionaires - there won't be a full -time nanny, nor will they be off to boarding school while she studies. I'm not sure why some of you think that her dh can suddenly take on more childcare who exactly will be earning money if he's at home?

However, it is very encouraging that there are people out there in similar situations..

Maybe I was a little tactless, but I was just being honest, like she has many a time with me. Like one post put it- friends don't just blindly agree, they challenge too. She knows that I admire her and she is an inspiration, but I'm not going to sugar coat something that could have a drastic effect on her family.

Oh, and I wasn't asking for responses about retraining to be an occupational therapist or a solicitor but a Paediatritian. Completely different.

Oh get you, snappy with control issues. Just out of interest, what's the upper age limit on retraining to join the forum police?

Just as an aside (and I know this isn't paediatrician based but still NHS course funded) there were people doing my degree (midwifery) that were doing it as a second degree and the course fees were paid. Likewise I've heard of nurses/midwives getting accepted onto the 4 year medical degree and having the three final years funded.

Kladdkaka

By the way OP it's paediatrician with a "c" not a "t".

Finocchio Clinical psychology and child psychotherapy would take even longer to train.

If she has a 2.1 (2.2 on two courses and a 1st for Birmingham I think) in her first degree she can apply for graduate medicine which is a 4 year course. Some unis only accept science degrees but some also accept the arts) I know a few people who have gone down this route. You can get graduate loans to help with the cost of living and loans to cover fees. The last 3 years are funded anyway. After a 4 year course you have 2 foundation years but these are paid. Then you specialise.

Good point by benedicts on NHS funded courses but that doesn't include medicine, I'm afraid...

It does cover clinical psychology though, so other options from a cost point of view might be worth considering - but that needs a relevant first degree (normally psychology) then a three year post grad.....

Can they afford for her to be without a salary for 5 years and getting into debt, then two years on a junior doctor's salary - and pay the fees as well ? It's not just the fees that you have to consider, it's the loss of a salary.

"you can do anything you want" is all very well but you have to be realistic.