to think this does not constitute potty training

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We are having issues with toileting our 4 year old. MIL announces today that both dh and dsil were potty trained at 18 months. Apparently they uses pottys in them days and they sat on them till they went.
I may be oversensitive but I offended by this. I used pottys too you know. Just find it difficult to make a 4 year old sit on potty until he poos. Wees ok.

Also, it's quite typical for people who wait until a bit later - say, 2;6, to report that the initial stages of toilet training took a few days in comparison to the type of training carried out from 18 months to 2 years where parents will frequently time potty sessions very carefully, have lots of accidents to clean up after and forward and backward steps. It's just horses for courses within those toddler years, I never understand why people brag about it!

'Also, it's quite typical for people who wait until a bit later - say, 2;6, to report that the initial stages of toilet training took a few days in comparison to the type of training carried out from 18 months to 2 years where parents will frequently time potty sessions very carefully, have lots of accidents to clean up after and forward and backward steps.'

That has simply not been my experience. I've seen so many posters on mumsnet saying they are having problems potty training two, three, and four year olds, and they are getting very stressed out about it because they have the time limit of a child starting school.

The age of potty training has significantly changed over the last 50 years, and I don't believe that is because children are physically less capable now.

Children in the UK are potty trained very late, even compared to other countries within western Europe. Again I don't believe it's because children are physically less capable in the UK.

I think it's because of false believes about potty training. Parents seem to me to be terrified of potty training, terrified of psychologically damaging their child. They seem to wait until some magic moment when their child is suddenly ready. They are looking to tick off a whole list of things that think tell them that their child is ready. They really think that the longer they wait, the easier it will be. And I don't think that is true in many cases.

And I don't see the occasional wee or poo accident as a 'step back' or a failure of potty training; I see it as the child learning about their own body and about what their own body is capable of.

'frequently time potty sessions very carefully'

I have never timed potty sessions. I can't imagine anything more tiresome.

"That has simply not been my experience. I've seen so many posters on mumsnet saying they are having problems potty training two, three, and four year olds, and they are getting very stressed out about it because they have the time limit of a child starting school."

Comparing a 2, 3 and 4 year old across any measure of development is silly. I have seen posters on MN express concern about the speech and language development of their 1, 2 and 3 year olds. At 1, it is almost never a concern. At 2, it sometimes is and sometimes is not. At 3 it is always worthy of assessment and usually of intervention.

A 2 year old not having toilet trained is nothing like a 3 year old, and a 4 year old is presenting with a less typical difficulty.

I don't really care if a child is trained at 18 months or 2 or 2 and a half. Even 3. I think it's largely irrelevant and down to personal preference and there will be no long term consequences.

I know twins who were "trained" at 18 months. They aren't talking at 2;4. One of those may mean something for their long term development - clue: not the toilet training. It's not their mother's fault they're not talking any more than it is that one parent feels its best to wait until 2;6 to start toilet training. Individual difference, that's all.

Unless you are training a child with additional needs or who is having severe difficulties (which will almost always relate to something else), it's really NOT a big deal or worthy of talking about. My point was simply that I don't understand why people come on threads like these to do the Supermum "well all MY children were trained at 18 months" when by my definition, no, they were not and you're just crowing to make someone else who is struggling feel insecure. Which I don't understand the motivation for. It's not really worth patting yourself on the back about unless there is a reason why toilet training is particularly difficult for your child.

I think it is a big deal, and it is worth talking about. Teachers are complaining that more and more children are coming to school not potty trained. Parents and children are getting more and more stressed by potty training.

Potty training has never been more complicated nor profitable. Millions of books are sold on potty training; there is a huge amount of information available on the internet, and none of it seems to be making potty training any easier; quite the opposite in fact.

There has never been so much paraphernalia associated with potty training - a whole range of nappies and pull ups; singing potties/'potettes' (not sure what they are, I admit); and more and more so-called professionals giving advice about potty training.

Of course the most traditional source of knowledge is from the older generations, but for some reason it suits us to pooh-pooh their experiences, accuse them of lying, and accuse them of all sorts of wired tactics such as tying a child to a potty.

The OP of this thread disbelieves her mother-in -law's experience but will listen to a school nurse who may or may not know anything much at all.

And I know that singing potties do exist, because we have one. Except we could never be bothered to put batteries in it.

OP hugs, it's hard isn;t it?

DS4 is just 4 and completely dry, day and night. Has he ever done a pood anywhere but a nappy? nope. Will hold on until he is ill, smashes his head against the toilet if we try and get him to poo there, throws potty away.

Now i guess I am lucky in that his natural time to go is not in daytime so he can be at least without a nappy and it is unlikely to be even registered as an issue by teachers when he starts school but nonetheless there is a feeling of failure that comes with it and I wish you luck.

Fine. I don't. I think that's because I am on of those "so-called professionals" who work with children with significant long-term disabilities that are not resolved by secondary school age and result in significant mental health needs both within them and often stress within their wider families.

I just can't get exercised about whether a child trains at 18 months or 2 and a half and I will never believe it to be the measure of parenting skill that some others believe. I couldn't care less when a child is potty trained as long as they are happy, healthy and developing well. To make it seem advantageous to have an 18 month old trained as opposed to a 2 and a half year old just seems silly to me, but each to their own.

Incidentally, some members of "the older generations" will tell the parents of the children I work with that there is nothing to worry about or that they are "fine" when they are nonverbal at 4 and will often advocate all sorts of things from spanking to feeding certain types of food to encourage talking. I have had to sit with grandparents who have openly laughed at the idea of "paraphernalia" such as communication aids and try to explain that age old wisdom doesn't always apply. Sadly, though this is common with the young children I see, everyone changes their tune when that child can't communicate a message at 11. Often there is a lot of grief that it wasn't taken more seriously earlier. Just being from a different generation doesn't really validate particular advice and while yes, some things have been over commercialised and over-professionalised, I wouldn't want to go back to a time when the children I work with would have been institutionalised in facilities that were barely better than Romanian orphanages for their "mental deficiencies".

And in the context of that, I feel a bit "meh" about singing potties. If people want to try it, why not? It wouldn't be for me but it isn't a particularly important issue in child development to my mind.

Lemniscate - you have been the voice of reason here and I am quite at the way certain posters have breezily announced that if potty training isn't going well the parents must be doing it wrong. My ds was potty trained at just over 2 and got the hang of both wee and poo brilliantly - my dd was also potty trained at two and is great with wee and is even dry 99.9% of the time at night but her poo... She starts them before we get to the loo, it is extremely frustrating as nothing seems to work! Would love to see if anyone has solutions but mostly I get told she is still young and it will solve itself

Working9while5 that ahs been my ecxperience with the aprents of autistic kids I support, and indeed my experience with my ds1 and ds3 who have diagnosed ASD.

And Yy to grief about being taken seriously; even with 2 diagnosed siblings NOBODY is inetrested in ds4's potty training worries

Hmm. I don't think potty training between 18 months and two is neccessarily a case of the parent just plonking them on the potty to eliminate,and calling it potty trained working.
If they have been trained to use the toilet or potty, and are in pants, not nappies, they may not be doing up buttons, and wiping themselves at 2, but you can read their signs, see that they are squirming about and suggest they go to the toilet, and if they are trained, they will.

Thank you ilikecandy

Belgo, I agree there is a tendency to ignore the older generation on this issue when actually potty training is something that has been done successfully in the past quite often and therefore we may learn something useful. However I think the OP is well within her rights to ignore MIL if MIL only has experience of relatively easy trainers at c. 18 months and OP is struggling with a 4 year old refuser. MIL's experience is just not going to be helpful in this situation - 18 month olds and 4 year olds are very different, easy trainers and refusers are very different.

Thanks ladies. Some really good posts on here. Have a new positive attitude to this now. Sent ds to bed with a task for him to think about what he needs us to do to help him crack this. New seat etc etc.
Think putting the ball in his court could be a good approach.
It is so true that all children are different.

belgo when I posted this op I was quite frankly cross with MIL and dh too. I felt she was not saying this to be helpful. It was said as a way of undermining ds who was in the room at the time. This I know from experience as she makes it perfectly clear that she favours older grandchild.
I really felt sad for ds. It can't have been nice for him having grandma tell him that his daddy and auntie were trained at 18 months and daddy telling him a 6 month baby is doing things he can't.

Surely school nurses come up with this situation again and again. It is their profession to help school age children deal with this issue. Dealing with a toddler is very different.

"daddy telling him a 6 month baby is doing things he can't."

Can't or won't? If he can hold his poo until bedtime every day, surely that means he is perfectly capable of controlling his bowel movements.

OP, one more thing, do you have a child toilet seat that fits into the normal toilet seat? I have a friend whose DS really did once fall down the toilet without one.

Yes I do cecily. Thanks.

Hi there, OP. My DS was great with wees - reliably dry from just over age two. However, with pooing......nightmare!
He insisted on pooing in his undies until almost four. He insisted that he wanted to go into a corner and poo in his knickers. End of discussion.......didn't want to have a nappy on to poo....didn't want a potty. He also only pooed at home, never at nursery. "I'm never going to poo in the toilet - I want to poo in my knickers."

We didn't make a fuss, just cleaned him up and explained how much easier life would be if he pooed in the toilet instead. We did this for QUITE a while.....did the Poo Party thing....you name it.

One day, he just decided to poo in the toilet, and (boak) I took a photo of it on my phone and pretended to sent it to the in-laws as they'd be really impressed. i did actually phone them and ask them to call in the evening to praise him.

Had a few undies incidents after this, but every time he DID manage to poo in the toilet, we went through the photo routine and it gradually got better until the bells and whistles just got faded out IYSWIM.

Having a refuser is a pain - you just have to take the emotion out of it and slog on through.

Good luck with it.

Thank you. Great to hear other people's experience.

Oh, and I remember telling (discreetly) adult friends of ours who are quite open about bodily functions to mention the fact they poo in the toilet. Not in a "come on, DS, everyone poos in the toilet, get on with it" way, but "Oh yes, I've been pooing in the toilet since I was little......but (insert dog's name) doesn't because she doesn't know how to flush"....you get the drift (hopefully).

If you think the Poo Party/Pooland might work for your DS, give it a go. My DS simply responded with "Poos don't go to parties because they're not alive", so we gave up on that avenue.....sigh......

working9while5 - sorry if I've offended you with my 'so-called' professional comment, I didn't mean it to you personally. But I'm sure you are aware that there are many professionals who talk absolute rubbish.