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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to laugh at the reverence with which some people on mn write about universities?

182 replies

Pickgo · 07/04/2012 19:14

I've seen Russell Group universities written about as though their students have a passport to success and that their standards are so much higher than the rest of the HE offering.

The only difference I can see between a RG and ordinary university is that they focus on research and get extra funding to do so. That does not necessarily benefit students, in fact it could be argued it is to the students' disadvantage as teaching is not a RG uni's priority.

Also altho their admission requirements are ostensibly higher, many students who actually get a place obtain it in clearing with much lower points - which makes a nonsense of the 'RG snobbery' being trotted out.

Another thing I've seen suggested is that potential students will have their FB accounts checked before they are offered a place. I've never known anyone who would have the time or inclination to look up an 18 yr old on FB as part of admissions.

Potential students are the paying customer now and will be a sought after commodity.

Can I also just point out that average contact time in HE is 6-8 hours and most of what students achieve in their 3-4 years at uni is down to their own motivation and a good library imho.

OP posts:
tinkertitonk · 10/04/2012 12:18

From an earlier commenter:" All I know is that my dh recruits hundreds of people every year and he never gives the uni or indeed the degree a second glance. All he cares about is whether they have intelligence and excellent interpersonal skills and can persuade people to do stuff they may not necessarily want to.

He reckons he can tell within 5 minutes of an interviewee opening their mouth whether they are going to work within his organisation (massive global pharma corp)" (Emphasis mine.)

Massive global pharma corps depend, crucially, on discovering new drugs. For that they need the best scientists in the world. How on earth is "All he cares about is whether they have intelligence and excellent interpersonal skills and can persuade people to do stuff they may not necessarily want to" going to find such people? What is the level of this hiring?

My main point leads on from this: if our children think that the nature and source of their degree is irrelevant then they will find it hard to make much of a contribution to the world in which they live.

NetworkGuy · 10/04/2012 13:55

"I was lucky to graduate in 1998." struck me as a very significant point.

Competition is bound to be harder now, and to some extent the larger numbers of students on degree courses will have devalued the 'status' of a degree, certainly with smaller employers. Some might even have a nagging doubt about taking on someone with a degree because the candidate could be "bored as they are overqualified". It's now very "hit and miss" about how much a degree will benefit a candidate (depending on the vacancies they are chasing, of course).

Although I left school with only 'O' levels (aiming for Merchant Navy Radio Officer) and quit the Radio and Radar course 6 months from the end (because opportunities for the necessary 6 months on ship as probation period had vanished when Supertankers made 2/3 of the crews redundant), I was taken on, in preference to 9 degree holders, because of my attitude to learning, and practical approach (and hundreds of hours experience, compared with minor use for WP), to computer programming.

I landed a position as a trainee programmer (in the late 70s when such jobs existed) while some had degrees in English, History, etc. Two lots of interviews, one with the programmers fairly informally, and another, more grilling, with (4) senior members of the department and someone from HR.

Cannot imagine how someone would consider applying for a trainee systems programmer position without knowing a jot about programming, and closest they had come was word processing (and that in the days before PCs, of course, so must have used some massively expensive multi-user service at their university).

I suspect I would tend to ignore which university someone studied at, and only regard the degree as useful if it related to the position they were applying for. Indeed, I might find a degree somewhat detrimental if advertising for data entry staff, for example, though an interview might make it clear that the intention is to work way up...

Helenagrace · 10/04/2012 15:20

I went to a non RG uni because they didn't offer my weird subject. DH did (Bristol). I'm amazed at how little contact time he had and how little support there was for anyone who didn't pick something up straight away in a massive lecture. He only had tutorials for the first year. On the other hand I had loads of opportunities to present at tutorials and seminars and graduated much more confident in my own abilities.

I think my uni (Hull) is a middle ranking one but I can't find it on any lists. It's fairly old (1920s I think). I turned down Durham, Nottingham and York to go there. I also turned down Bangor but that wasn't that hard. I chose it on course alone.

DH's profession generally only considers elite and RG universities. I think they're missing out on some highly able people but that's the way it is. They're not going to change for anyone, so if you want to be an actuary RG uni it is.

As much as we might think it stupid the grim reality is that where you study really matters to some people.

Dh has a mantra he states to DD regularly: "proper degree, proper university, daddy pays. Silly degree, silly university you pay". Whilst it winds me up sometimes, he does have a point.

PatronSaintOfDucks · 10/04/2012 15:49

I worked at both a RG university and a lower-snob value university. Critical perspectives on widening participation, etc. aside, the "quality" of education highly depends on the students' peer group. And here RG and same-level universities win. They have higher admissions criteria, which means that students get to study alongside more academically-minded peers. Knowledge, drive, confidence (and other things, such as perhaps snobbery, valued in society) rub off and are multiplied in such environment. If you go to a uni that asks for two Cs and a D at best, your academic abilities will not be helped by the fact that you will be surrounded by people who can barely put a sentence together and have very little academic confidence. Teaching quality in some elite universities is total shite because lecturer there are focused on research and do not give a rat's arse about teaching. But it does not matter as the students have to be very bright to get in in the first place. And they learn together and from each other. And that's why recruiters love them.

wordfactory · 10/04/2012 17:29

If you put aside certain degrees that are specifically well served elsewhere, you'd be daft not to stick with RG.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, you will finder it harder to get certain jobs if you didn't attend. Why close doors? Particularly in a difficlut and globally competitive market? Only a special kind of idiot makes themselves look less attractive.

Yellowtip · 10/04/2012 22:40

There's no natural law which proclaims that ability in research precludes ability to teach. Yet another groundless stereotype.

I'm sure that it's incredibly important to students to try to find a university where they haven't undersold themselves as far as peer group goes, but that's about self esteem, social comfort and general happiness more than future job prospects per se.

When I look at CVs I have to say I do zoom in on university and class of degree, but then it's of peculiar importance in the field.

OhdearNigel · 11/04/2012 00:20

Several of my friends went to RG universities. All of them have mundane, shitty jobs. I dropped out of university in the 2nd term; DH and I probably have the best household income of any of them.

IME university=waste of money and I speak as the top academic scholar of my year

PatronSaintOfDucks · 11/04/2012 10:04

Yellowtip, ability to research certainly does not preclude ability to teach. On the contrary, good researchers can be interesting and engaging teachers with something to say. However, a focus on research can and often does divert the attention from focus on teaching, especially in situations when teaching achievements do not earn you any points, which is the situation in may research-intensive universities. In particular, this can affect people's abilities to teach "non-traditional" audiences - i.e. students with poor prior academic records, low academic skills, low confidence, etc. However, I do totally agree with you on the importance of emotional/social comfort for students.

OhdearNigel, if you think that the purpose of a university degree is solely to land a graduate a moneyed job, then, yes, it is often a waste of time. Many people, however, consider a wider role of education - e.g. raising more informed, aware, creative and critically-thinking individuals and citizens.

fluffyanimal · 11/04/2012 10:47

Coming to this thread late, have skim-read it so apologies if I'm saying something that has already been said.

The only difference I can see between a RG and ordinary university is that they focus on research and get extra funding to do so. That does not necessarily benefit students, in fact it could be argued it is to the students' disadvantage as teaching is not a RG uni's priority.

As PatronSaint says, studying at a research-intensive university should actually benefit the students - what I tend to say at open days is that students should want to study under the tutors who wrote the leading-edge reference works on their book lists. However, it is true that if the university does not properly value and reward the teaching part of a lecturer's workload then that balance can suffer. This will vary from uni to uni.

Also altho their admission requirements are ostensibly higher, many students who actually get a place obtain it in clearing with much lower points - which makes a nonsense of the 'RG snobbery' being trotted out.

At my uni at least, we are not allowed to accept anyone via Clearing with fewer points than our standard offer, as doing this affects our position in the blasted league tables (average A-level points of students is a factor).

Can I also just point out that average contact time in HE is 6-8 hours and most of what students achieve in their 3-4 years at uni is down to their own motivation and a good library imho.

And that is how it should be. University is about becoming an independent learner - and that is also something that research-intensive unis are good at, because the staff know how to be independent learners themselves. Unfortunately, the problem we face nowadays is that students have become more and more spoon-fed at school and expect that to continue at uni, so a lot of effort now goes into developing the skills to be in charge of one's own learning.

My personal view is that the different groups/guilds of universities will become increasingly meaningless: what will drive the opinion of the paying student customer is the National Student Survey, the results of which (searchable by course and institution) can be seen at unistats.direct.gov.uk/. Someone asked upthread how they could tell which is the best uni for their subject - this is how.

BoffinMum · 11/04/2012 14:01

Patronsaint makes a good point about the effect of peer groups. This also feeds into the NSS (National Student Survey), by the way.

For various reasons I can't go into here, we happen to have a very aggressive and proactive widening participation policy on our course, so we take a wider selection of students than other research-intensive universities do (we are in the top 50, by the way). Some groups of students (and I really do mean some, certainly not all, but it's a noticeable minority) who score lower in terms of UCAS points, and where most students are the first in their families to go to university, are clearly poorly prepared for higher education, and basically expect university to be like school. They frequently talk about 'lessons', 'teachers' and 'homework', even after a couple of years with us, and seem to get hugely irritated if they aren't spoon fed information on pieces of A4 to memorise, as they are of the mindset that if they have to look information up in a book, it is because the lecturer has been too lazy to prepare a worksheet for them (seriously - I had one group of students in my former Very Highly Rated institution go as a deputation to the Dean because I asked them to do this, and they formally complained I didn't have any subject knowledge. The Dean then pointed out to them I had written a book and several papers on the topic, was an authority, and directed them to the library, which flummoxed them completely, apparently Wink).

The attendance of these lower UCAS scoring students can be significantly poorer than other students, and they seem to expect to be chased up frequently in order to attend. When we tracked some of these students, we found that they were less likely to attend university regularly, and that there was a statistical correlation between their attendance, which was between 60-80%, and their marks for assignments, which were 10-20% lower than lower UCAS scoring students who did attend regularly - a difference of 1-2 degree classifications. Obviously we use various disciplinary and advisory measures to try to improve this and get the attendance message across, but ultimately the students are their own worst enemies in many cases. When we tracked what they were actually doing when they weren't at uni, it was things like social networking (not paid work as we expected). Indeed, this group spend in excess of 20 hours a week on Facebook alone, excluding the course or uni FB sites. Interesting stuff.

Their approach to academic work can be superficial in the extreme, especially during the first year, and they take it very, very personally if they are marked down for anything at all. Spelling, grammar and referencing are insurmountable problems for some of them, and we need to run extra GCSE-style classes in order for them to develop the ability to write essays and reports. It soon becomes clear that their impressions of their own abilities have been grossly inflated by the institutions they attended for years 12 and 13, as well as their AS/A Level courses.

Their presence on the course can have a darker side. In some more extreme cases, despite all our efforts, they display a strange tendency to bitch about the course in groups, and take their 'revenge' via poor student feedback, even though the university is providing a perfectly robust, well-run academic 'product', which suits all other types of students, and putting in the required resources for this particular group (including remedial school-type teaching where necessary, as outlined above, which is not exactly our remit). Their behaviour sits in contrast to the higher UCAS scoring students, who seem to be more upbeat and independent generally, and respond more effectively to our teaching and academic interventions. They are more likely to attend 85% or more of the time, are more likely to score grades in the 65%+ range (1st or good 2:1) and are more likely to become involved in student societies and groups whilst at university as well, meaning they start to develop good contacts for later life. This is where such students have an edge.

One good thing about the Browne review (possibly the only good thing) is that some of these students might be filtered out of highly academic courses where they are poorly equipped to thrive, and encouraged to study on higher level vocational courses whilst in the workplace, which ultimately might knock the edges off them faster than university can hope to, leading to better careers for them, and a happier experience for them as students. At the moment they are square pegs in round holes, and if I am really honest, a drain on our energies and resources at university.

BoffinMum · 11/04/2012 14:13

I just logged onto Unistats, by the way, and looked up various providers. There seems to be a loose correlation between the UCAS points scored, and students' overall satisfaction with their course at the end. I will get our official stats guys to look at this after the Easter vac - I don't think anyone's delved into this before.

VivaLeBeaver · 11/04/2012 14:23

I went to a RG uni and didn't know I had until after I graduated. The only reason I know now that I went to one is from previous MN threads.

PeelingBells · 11/04/2012 14:24

BoffinMum I think your comments above say more about your shadow side than the "darker side" presence of the "particular group" you talk of. It may well be that some individuals are better suited to vocational courses, but a better psycho-socio understanding of your students might not go amiss either.

wordfactory · 11/04/2012 14:25

Boffinmum that is absolutely fascinating. Thank you.

wordfactory · 11/04/2012 14:31

But peeling is it really Boffin's job to educate herslf about the background of her students? They are afterall adults.

I recall going to university from a very deprived background and finding the whole experience very difficult initially. I had never lived nor studied in an environment anything like it. But within half a term it became very obvious what was needed. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could work it out.

As an adult you either step up to the plate or you don't.

For example, once you've been told that attendance has an effect upon grades, the rest is a matter for you. It is not for the university staff to chase and chase and drill that importance in. It's not school afterall.

mumblechum1 · 11/04/2012 14:56

Slight hijack here - does anyone know anything about Goldsmiths (part of University of London)? On the website it looks v arty/lefty, but DS wants to do Politics or History & Politics. There are lots of places he could go (predicted AAB) but he really wants to go to Uni in London.

will he stand out like a sore thumb as a non-arty, non-lefty aspiring Army Officer?

Metabilis3 · 11/04/2012 15:03

@mumblechum I know someone who went there. He was (and is still) very arty (well, more showbiz although he is also a serious writer) and lefty. He loved it there.

mumblechum1 · 11/04/2012 15:13

Metabilis3, that's what I'm slightly worried about. DS is the least artistic person I know and his politics are pretty much middle of the road. I don't want him to be the odd one out.

PatronSaintOfDucks · 11/04/2012 15:19

Wow, BoffinMum. Your Uni does serious research on its students! I am impressed.

BoffinMum · 11/04/2012 15:22

In actual fact I do know an awful lot about my students, and the socio-economic context of their attendance at university, as that sort of thing happens to link to my research area. So if I am saying that this group has identity formation problems in HE, despite having resources and goodwill lavished on them, then you can take it that this is a serious policy issue.

titchy · 11/04/2012 15:30

Mumble - it is still arty and lefty - the Politics dept is no exception so maybe think again? Or be very prepared to argue the point!

LSE, Kings? With AAB he should have a fairly good choice I'd have thought?

crazynanna · 11/04/2012 15:43

Interesting reading about Goldmiths'. DD accepted a place there (mature student) doing Politics and Int Studies.

KatieScarlett2833 · 11/04/2012 15:47

I did MA Politics at York, was fab.

PenguinFeet1 · 11/04/2012 15:48

Not sure if I should admit this but I've just had to check which universities are Russel Group. Turns out mine was and I didn't even know! Not sure what that says about me!

titchy · 11/04/2012 16:08

The RG was only formed in 1994 (and the 1994 group!) so if you went to one before this date not surprising you didn't know - as it wasn't then!