to laugh at the reverence with which some people on mn write about universities?

[Pickgo]

I've seen Russell Group universities written about as though their students have a passport to success and that their standards are so much higher than the rest of the HE offering.

The only difference I can see between a RG and ordinary university is that they focus on research and get extra funding to do so. That does not necessarily benefit students, in fact it could be argued it is to the students' disadvantage as teaching is not a RG uni's priority.

Also altho their admission requirements are ostensibly higher, many students who actually get a place obtain it in clearing with much lower points - which makes a nonsense of the 'RG snobbery' being trotted out.

Another thing I've seen suggested is that potential students will have their FB accounts checked before they are offered a place. I've never known anyone who would have the time or inclination to look up an 18 yr old on FB as part of admissions.

Potential students are the paying customer now and will be a sought after commodity.

Can I also just point out that average contact time in HE is 6-8 hours and most of what students achieve in their 3-4 years at uni is down to their own motivation and a good library imho.

Boff, the University of York is a member of the Russell Group.

Why is it not listed on the RG's list of university on their website then?

(I believe so are Exeter and Durham, but I'm not sure). This is all quite recent changes, but I think it's important to acknowledge them to show how fast these things change.

The face to face contact time thing is the tip of the iceberg, really. If you really wanted to calculate how much face to face time students get you would also have to count the help they get from some very skilled librarians as they navigate their assignments and research projects, input from PG students in their departments, ad hoc tutorials, personal counselling to help them with their studies (as part of being at university is developing a mature attitude to life, work and study), corridor conversations, departmental drop-ins, research seminars that they are invited to attend, central university lectures in addition to departmental ones (for example when VIPS come to give a lecture) and so on, and so on. If they took up every opportunity available to them, then it would be hard to spend less than 35 hours a week on all this. The ones that do achieve much higher results, statistically speaking - I know because I have measured it.

Has it changed so fast that they are all still on the 1994 group website and not on the RG website? So changed in the last couple of days?

York is not RG

It rocks though (I went there, along with UEA and Sheffield) York was by far thes best

I was just going to post that York has just defected across, and Durham might be discussing it as well (I vaguely remember reading something last week).

sea - York (among others) has very recently been invited to join the Russell Group.

It is quite telling, because of course until just recently, the rhetoric was 'oh, we are happy not to be in the Russell Group, we prefer it ...'. Now, of course, it's all, 'Oooh, yay, we're in the Russell group!'

Cross post - sorry boffin, I knew you'd know!

It's only happened over the last month or so, so quite recent, yes.

Sorry - as of a few weeks ago - York is

Yes, there is a lot of manoeuvering in the aftermath of the Browne Review, and it's happening so fast you wouldn't believe it.

DoomCats, my thoughts exactly. I don't know why the 1994 group and the RG don't merge, tbh.

With another 4 unis added, what % of grads will now be from RG? A quarter?

Will they keep on adding universitys?

Just looked at York and Durham's websites. Joined on 12th March and have resigned from 1994 group.

It is strange, isn't it?!

I think the only worry is for undergraduates, who - IME - can feel very short-changed because they don't realize the rhetoric about these groups is, indeed, rhetoric and not honest belief. Of course - why should they realize that?

It's difficult for them.

the Russell Group may harbour ambitions of representing all pre-92 universities ? which is why it is happy to welcome more members.

The Russell Group is only a group lobbying for funding, isn't it?

They don't care where undergraduates come from, or whether they can spell 'university' in the plural.

It isn't all rhetoric. Some universities are better than others. Of course a lot of it is down to hard work, but if the combination of teaching, facilities and the impact of peers had no influence on a university education, then there really would be no point going. Everyone may as well just do their degrees through the OU.

I can spell just fine thank you doomcats.

Oh, I do believe that seahouses. I just don't believe that the standard of a university's undergraduate teaching necessarily correlates well with their research status.

The OU is a great organisation, IMO.

Of course some universities are better than others but again it also varies drastically between courses. RG membership does not mean a university is necessarily better or better for a specific course.

Yes, I think an OU degree should be held in high regard. But there are no doubt some disadvantages to doing one for the student - isolation from an undergraduate peer group, no easy access to lab facilities and so on.

bunny - honestly, I'm dyslexic, I'm really the last person who should criticize, sorry! I'm sure Ive made lots of errors. It's just I do think it you're insisting a university is very good, to say 'Will they keep on adding universitys' (as you did) is a bit of a clanger!

sea - absolutely agree. I think that is such an important point, the isolation.

BG, that is quite difficult for applicants to undergraduate courses to navigate though. People will choose the well known universities as a safe option because it is hard to know, without specialist advice, how different departments compare. I think people often take into account departmental reputation more at postgraduate level, when they are already in the system and can take advice from academics in their field.