to think it isn't a big deal if children in reception can't use a knife and fork

[Whoneedssleepanyway]

my friend gets a real bee in his bonnet about so called middle class neglect and parents "outsourcing" all their parenting to teachers, nannies, nursery etc.

this week his gripe was that children go to school without knowing how to use a knife and fork and his aunt who was a headmistress at a primary school said to him that without fail every year there were a number of children in reception who couldn't use anything other than a spoon to eat.

AIBU to think this really isn't a big deal, my DD1 is just 5 and is still getting to grips with a knife, I tend to still cut a lot of her food up for her, I do lay her a knife and fork at mealtimes but she tends to use the fork a bit like a spoon. I haven't particularly pushed the need to hold her knife and fork properly on the basis that she will get there eventually...she can use a knife to spread things like butter on bread, the fact she isn't using both her knife and fork competently yet really isn't something I lose sleep over.

Table mats??? Why do we need table mats? I never use mats - they'd just not "go" with my table and crockery. I sometimes use chargers, but for day to day we place plates on the table.

We still manage proper family meals with lots of chat though.

My youngest DS (11) uses a knife and fork well, except that he has them in the wrong hands. He is right-handed,and as much as I have tried to get him to do it the "right" way, he just can't and says it feels funny. So I've given up. I lay the table as normal, and he just sorts his cutlery out when he comes to eat. As long as he is actually using them, I've decided , what does it matter if it's not the generally accepted way?

a 5 year old should be able to use a knife and fork knife not so much but they should be able to cut food and be able to eat lunch without a teacher or dinner lady helping them , so many children start school not being able to do anything and struggle with eating coats etc ,

oh and i dont use a knife and fork the right way Im also right handed It feels faffy to me so i change hands .

You need table mats to protect the table: from heat if plates are hot and from getting marked by the cutlery and possibly the underside of the plates.

I have just had a parent/teacher meeting with my dd2s nursery school, she is 4 and will be starting P1 in September. The principal had a list of achievable tasks that the child had to complete by the end of the summer term and eating with a fork, setting out cutlery and being able to pour a beaker of water from a jug was one of the outcomes of finishing nursery. As was putting on/taking off coats, shoes, recognising their name written down.

YABU.

People should sit with their DCs at the table and show them how to use a knife and fork, and encourage them to do it properly.

Baby Goo is good with a spoon, so I have started to give her a fork, she is 16MO. As she gets better we will introduce a knife and show her how to use it.

DS is just five and uses a knife and fork. Admittedly the knife is usually just used to poke the food onto the fork, as he lacks the ability to cut much with it (rubbish blunt child cutlery and lack of strength in his hands).

Yes I am judgy and 'people should'. But they bloody should. Yes they are children. We are parents and it is our job to teach them things. I'm not stressy about dinner time. If dinner goes shootiung across the table then it does. but we try.

the kids i taught in my Taiwanese Kindi were very impressed by the oldest of their number - a 7 year old - being able to use chopsticks. up to that point..spoon spoon spoon..

but i think kids will learn if effort is made, and opportunity is there.

My 30 year old brother does his laces in the same slow methodical way he did as a 4 year old. (lace cross, under, pull...loop, round, poke through, pull....). It's a good method, so why change...

I can't blame 'outsourcing' for DD not being able to use knife and fork yet.. my Mum has them on my working days, and she had all of us fully trained as soon as possible! It is only lack of will from me that means delay.

marriedinwhite - not for my table you don't. That very much depends on your table. Our table doesn't mark with heat or scratch with plates. Therefore, table mats are unnecessary.

Tbh I hardly ever use a fork as I'm veggie and don't often eat food that needs to be cut up My 4 year old can just about use a knife if he has to.

I've never tried using chopsticks myself

Err I meant knife then not fork...

I think parents should have made an effort to teach there children to use things like knives and forks. They should certainly be able to eat food with a fork by the time they start school.

i can use chopsticks really well and am judgy about DH who always goes for the fork option when we have takeaway...

to be fair, it is harder using chopsticks with a plate rather than a bowl.

Does your friend write for the Daily Fail?

So Nagoo has a 5 year old (so reception age) who can't use a knife properly and Wiggles says Scottish nursery (so half of those children would be in reception in England) has an end of year outcome of being able to use a knife and fork.

Which would suggest it is quite common for reception age children to not be able to use a knife and fork properly. So if we are going to put children for at least six hours a day into state education at such a young age, isn't it reasonable that both parents and the school are responsible for teaching children all manner of things appropriate to that age groups' ability?

So how is it unreasonable for the school to be playing a part in teaching these things? Or is lunch at school just meant to be about ignoring the kids? It wasn't when I was at school. The headmaster would walk around correcting table manners, talking to children etc, and dinner ladies were also involved. If we all think schools have no part to play in the lunch hour, the children should all be sent home for that hour. They are not dogs being locked up in a kennel until the owners return.

This reminds me of a thread on the TES forum about how amazed they were that parents didn't teach their secondary school age children about current affairs, as if current affairs are nothing to do with teachers and schools. In DS's school, a different child in his form has to prepare a power point presentation each day about an item of recent news to present in form time. Why are so many adults involved with children constantly trying to push all responsibility on to either the school or the home? Why don't both reinforce these things at appropriate times? How is the lunch hour not an appropriate time (if the children have a school lunch rather than sandwiches)? Why can't we see our children's education as a collective effort of both home and school?

SeaHouses I'm in NI , I remember when I was in primary school having to do a report of the news based on what was on Newsround the previous day, mind you I'm very old!

Just remember there may be cultural reason too.

Asian familes may well eat with their hands as this is the norm- with someone would teach ( left handed) me to eat dhal and rice with my fingers without dropping it everywhere lol. They may well only use cutlery " the wrong way round" as well as eating with a fork in your left hand isn't allowed.

Wiggles, my rant is ruined then! I don't know how P1 compares to reception ages.

SeaHouses - there is a difference between being able to use a knife and fork (as opposed to fingers) and using them properly. I don't think anyone would expect a 4 year old to use cutlery perfectly or be able to cut difficult things, but most 4 year olds should have been able to have a good go with a knife and fork for a year or so.

I tried to teach DS how to eat with a knife and fork, which at the age of seven he still can't do due to lack of co-ordination (dx of BJH and awaiting dx of dyspraxia). I thought it was okay for him not to have mastered these skills.

Cue arrival of DD who at the age of two can use a knife and fork with gentle guidance from myself. Children between the ages of 2-5 develop their fine motor skills at different rates. What is a shame is if the child only starts to use a knife and fork in school.

I don't understand why anyone's kids have school dinners. Do fussy 4 year olds actually eat anything at school or have time to struggle with knife and fork? Most families have a cooked meal in the evening, not at lunchtime, so why would kids have it at lunchtime on school days?

I outsourced the teaching of cutlery use to nursery. Worth every penny.

Both the DC's had cracked it by the age of 2 without me needing to battle with them. I rarely eat with them TBH, I tend to hover and tidy the kitchen.

One of the reasons some children have school dinners is that they are free to low income families, unlike bringing your own packed lunch.

It's not new IME. When I was in primary school (about 24 years ago now ) I used to be a dinner monitor helping the reception children and most of them needed help cutting up their food. A very high proportion came from homes where cuttlery was hardly used, for cultural reasons, but they weren't the only ones.

DS is OK. Uses a fork and spoon most of the time, will have a go at soft stuff with a knife. Still resorts to his hands if it's difficult though. I'm not concerned, he starts school in September and is make progress in all sorts of areas on an almost daily basis.

outmonday - school dinners are compulsory in dd's school (independent prep), no packed lunch option. Can choose between main meal (veg option if parents have requested this previously) or jacket potato and salad. DD's never been fussy anyway, but even the ones I do know of who were fussy still manage fine. Maybe there are none who are really fussy I guess. Special diets done with discussion with school cook.

And whilst we do often have a cooked meal at night, but not always. Or it may be that DD has a later activity after school, so she eats separately from us and may chose to just have a sandwich or soup.