to think it isn't a big deal if children in reception can't use a knife and fork

[Whoneedssleepanyway]

my friend gets a real bee in his bonnet about so called middle class neglect and parents "outsourcing" all their parenting to teachers, nannies, nursery etc.

this week his gripe was that children go to school without knowing how to use a knife and fork and his aunt who was a headmistress at a primary school said to him that without fail every year there were a number of children in reception who couldn't use anything other than a spoon to eat.

AIBU to think this really isn't a big deal, my DD1 is just 5 and is still getting to grips with a knife, I tend to still cut a lot of her food up for her, I do lay her a knife and fork at mealtimes but she tends to use the fork a bit like a spoon. I haven't particularly pushed the need to hold her knife and fork properly on the basis that she will get there eventually...she can use a knife to spread things like butter on bread, the fact she isn't using both her knife and fork competently yet really isn't something I lose sleep over.

SeaHouses - I was a bit about that but said friend swears blind his aunt had children who didn't know what books were...

Blimey back in the old days(70s)you just used knives and forks.No fuss no bother.

I was living abroad and using chopsticks too.It really isn't that difficult-unless that is you let kids just pick at food with their fingers and they don't have set meal times round the table with parents leading by example.

Mum keeps telling me that children didn't start full time school at age 4 like my DD though. Is this true, if so that would explain some of the discrepancies on children not being able to use them well in reception now.

yabu
I would think a 5 year old should be able to use a knife and fork

We do teach old fashioned table manners at home, including cutlery use and so on. However DS2 had a developmental delay and was not able to cope with cutting food up, and after a year at school we found he had mentally categorised school dinners into 'small food' and 'big food' and only allowed himself to choose from the 'small foods' so he wouldn't embarrass himself.

Not really Tea because we started school during the term we became 5 (or maybe half term?) either way, I can't see it making that much difference.

That doesn't make sense, I meant 30 years ago they didn't start at age 4. Serves me right for mumsnetting and watching the kids eat dinner

Re the being babied for so much longer, 30 years ago it was much more common that only one parent worked so the stay at home parent was there to teach all these things, I am not excusing it as I work and still try to make sure I teach my DDs things at home, we read together, cook together, they get themselves dressed make their beds etc....but in the morning when we are tearing out of the house at 745 I wouldn't have time to let them tie their own ties, shoe laces etc etc (luckily no school tie and velcro shoes) , I can see that a lot of the time it is just easier for parents to do these things themselves.

I started school in 1972 and there is no way we could have done laces or a school tie!! But all the kids could eat properly at the table, I know that.

Well my daughter as I said below, was 4.2 on starting school in September and there is a big difference at that age in my limited experience between a 4.2 year old and a 5 year old. But I'm basing that only on my daughter.

Hecate I struggled to teach my 11 year old DS to do his shoelaces (and he is awful with a knife and fork, keeps putting them in the wrong hands )

Re the laces, have you tried this method:

tie the first knot
make the two loops
tie the two loops in a knot like the first knot

it seems to make an identical knot to the make one loop, wrap the other lace round and poke through method.

"I agree. When I think back to when I started school 39yrs ago most kids could use a knife and fork"

I agree. Also, it was full sized adult cutlery. None of this poncing about with kiddie cutlery.

kids need to eat with their parents too.
There is no rason why a non disabled 4 or 5 year old shouldnt be able to use knife/fork/chopsticks.
And 30 plus years ago we did start at 4. I'm a july baby and started full time school at 4 and 2 months.

I think your friend is telling the truth. There are reception children that know nothing of books, forks, pencils, have never seen a puzzle, have no idea where to even begin to put their own shoes on, let alone get undressed/dressed for PE. It's very sad for them.

I had to get my MIL to teach DS3 to tie his laces because they're the only two left handers in the family.

I just confused and stressed him out

DD1 is 6, nearly 7 and I only recently stopped cutting her food up. She only recently learned to tie a bow also. When she started school at 4.5 she could use a fork and spoon but not cut things up. I started to let her use the same sort of knife we as adults eat with at age 5 in year 1 as it didn't seem appropriate until then.

DD2 is better with physical skills like that - she has been able to do proper tripod grip of pens/pencils since she was 2, DD1 didn't get that until in reception class. I think she has an advantage with having a big sister to copy though.

Kids are all different. If people really want kids to be able to do insert list of things here before starting formal schooling then maybe they should start at age 6/7 like they do in more civilised countries.

children are getting babied for so much longer. 30 years ago you used a knife and fork in reception.

I beg to differ - 30 years ago kids were more often 5 than just turned 4 when they started school. Makes a vast difference.

I bet we'll have that problem, me and DH are both left handed but both girls are right handed....

My youngest (just turned 4) is given a knife and fork but struggles. I am trying to ensure she can use them when she starts school. I believe the dinner ladies do help cut up food for the little ones. I am also teaching her to put her shoes on the correct feet and to do a zip on her coat. Not sure all will be mastered but feel now is the time to try.
I have been on school trips with secondary children who were not used to eating at a table with a knife and fork. They were given a little talk on how to behave before eating....

I didn't mean they couldn't. They don't know how, yes because they haven't been shown. Which, tbh, is beyond me how kids get to 5 without being shown. That to me is an issue. A child that is 'getting to grips' with it is different imo.

YABU, it is a real problem at many schools and yes, I do think that it's neglectful to fail to teach your child to use cutlery. DM is a teacher and every year there are a handful of children who can't use any cutlery at all because their parents still spoon-feed them like babies. There aren't enough lunchtime supervisors (dinner ladies in my day :o) to go round cutting up children's food, spoon-feeding them etc. so the children have to learn PDQ. Children with a basic grasp of how to use a fork, a spoon and how to cut up their food (even if that's using the side of their forks) are at an advantage.

Not all children could use a knife and fork at 4 or 5, 30 years ago. I couldn't,not because I'd never been given them to use, but because I didn't have the coordination to do it. Likewise it took me quite a while to learn to tie my shoelaces (which is one of the other things these kind of people like to bang on about) and my school tie.

And, yes, if you take a packed lunch to school nobody will know whether you can use a knife and fork or not.

When my DS started nursery at 14 months I was asked whether he could use a knife and fork. He couldn't'....

He could by 4 though!

I don't think any of my children could use a knife and fork efficiently when they started school. They could wield a spoon well, though (much better for peas and beans )

They all learn eventually. Some children eat alot of finger foods.

Now laces, that's something we have yet to face with DS2, who is eight and has yet to own a pair of lace-up shoes. They all come with velcro these days.

ooh, that's good, balloon. I think I'll show him that video. Thanks. Actually, now it's been mentioned - I wonder if there's a problem because I'm left handed and they are both right handed? I hadn't thought about that.

It could be that Hecate

I taught my first two (right handers, like me) but had to get MIL to teach my youngest.